tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post3420657918437170130..comments2023-10-30T06:51:58.621-07:00Comments on Disillusioned Mormon: What LDS Doctrines are Found in The Book of Mormon?Brother Zelphhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10138332337674962461noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-6056640131373269482008-07-18T23:31:00.000-07:002008-07-18T23:31:00.000-07:00Vball,I can appreciate your position, and wish you...Vball,<BR/><BR/>I can appreciate your position, and wish you well in your spiritual journey. Sorry for the misquote.<BR/><BR/>BR, I wanted to give you the definition from the <A HREF="http://www.jewfaq.org/cgi-bin/search.cgi?Keywords=mikvah" REL="nofollow">Judaism 101 website:</A> <BR/><BR/>"Mikvah (MIK-vuh)<BR/><BR/>A ritual bath used for spiritual purification. It is used primarily in <B>Mormon Heretichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06041005866499638646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-22871874897451848462008-07-18T15:14:00.000-07:002008-07-18T15:14:00.000-07:00MH-Thank you for the info on baptisms history. I ...MH-<BR/><BR/>Thank you for the info on baptisms history. I just wanted to point out that I was misquoted. It was Brother Zelph who said "I think an 8 year old can be coerced to believe anything" The other is correct "9 year olds are in trouble if they die" and it sounded worse when I read it quoted back to me! I didn't mean for it to come out harshly, and I tend to take the point of view thatvballrhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11360672261026500984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-27111397292246402052008-07-18T07:32:00.000-07:002008-07-18T07:32:00.000-07:00BR,I appreciate your position. I was trying to gi...BR,<BR/><BR/>I appreciate your position. I was trying to give some historical perspective on mikvah/baptism.<BR/><BR/>I think Tata posted her comments on the wrong post. I don't know if BZ can move her comments to the appropriate topic, but it would be nice. If not, I want others to understand that she is really commenting on something else.Mormon Heretichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06041005866499638646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-54838451171987350082008-07-18T04:53:00.000-07:002008-07-18T04:53:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.tatabughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465431241615511545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-31565624791170468182008-07-18T01:57:00.000-07:002008-07-18T01:57:00.000-07:00I believe that Mikvah was a predecessor to baptism...I believe that Mikvah was a predecessor to baptism but the two are only related in the respect of cleansing. Mikvah was not used for conversion but was used after conversion repeatedly, whenever cleansing was needed. In addition it was not performed by an authority figure, but was performed on oneself by oneself. Not the same thing as being baptized for the remission of sins (just once) by Bishop Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05385909789743073477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-83194738622503928092008-07-17T22:54:00.000-07:002008-07-17T22:54:00.000-07:00The history of baptism is quite interesting, and m...The history of baptism is quite interesting, and much more complex than most people know.<BR/><BR/>Baptism seems to be related to the ancient Jewish rite called "mikvah", which was/is used for conversion to Judaism, ritual cleansing (Law of Moses type things, childbirth, women's menstruation, and other things.) If you go to this link at <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikvah" REL="nofollowMormon Heretichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06041005866499638646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-71590005731556251102008-07-17T19:12:00.000-07:002008-07-17T19:12:00.000-07:00vball-I don't call that a tangent. That was very ...vball-<BR/><BR/>I don't call that a tangent. That was very related to the topic at hand. <BR/><BR/>Speaking of which, MH, what do you think about the idea that Jesus wasn't baptized until he was 30 and that started his ministry?Brother Zelphhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10138332337674962461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-1146686508220657812008-07-17T11:19:00.000-07:002008-07-17T11:19:00.000-07:00I didn't mean to go off on a tangent. I just got ...I didn't mean to go off on a tangent. I just got so excited to be able to be part of the "real time" discussion! That said, I think it is still a little bit a part of the post. Near the end BZ lists some doctrines that are unique to the BoM including "it is a sin to baptize little children"vballrhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11360672261026500984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-1772151361989676832008-07-16T21:35:00.000-07:002008-07-16T21:35:00.000-07:00Sorry all, I have been checking the much more spir...Sorry all, I have been checking the much more spirited discussion on the other post more than this one. I didn't realize there were some questions for me here.<BR/><BR/>Now, the original topic was "What LDS Doctrines are Found in The Book of Mormon?" Now, the topic is not the validity of infant baptism. In the other "spirited" post, I have been accused of by two different people of not Mormon Heretichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06041005866499638646noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-31433068857469893182008-07-15T13:22:00.000-07:002008-07-15T13:22:00.000-07:00One one of the occasions I went tracting with miss...One one of the occasions I went tracting with missionaries ( yes suprise suprise I was very active - mostly helping these poor missionary kids and I knew the church was nonsense by then ).<BR/><BR/>On one door 'we' knocked , a dispute arose , it was absolutely ridiculous .The female householder was telling the elder missionary that she is already baptised and she doesn't need anything from him , Elder Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12151167504450803568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-81833142007685177332008-07-14T19:49:00.000-07:002008-07-14T19:49:00.000-07:00Brotherzelph,One of the guilts I carry with me is ...Brotherzelph,<BR/><BR/>One of the guilts I carry with me is manipulating my oldest son into getting baptized when he was eight. His older sister was very enthusiastic about it and I didn't question my son's desire until we were sitting in the bishop's office and he gave me a puzzled "why do I have to do this?" look.<BR/><BR/>This is why I chose to not baptize the rest of my children even before IJoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04450897654318345683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-73552537568746889012008-07-14T16:17:00.000-07:002008-07-14T16:17:00.000-07:00Oh, and good point about the brain not being fully...Oh, and good point about the brain not being fully developed yet, I have seen that, although, admitedly it was on Law and Order, but one more thing for my to look up!vballrhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11360672261026500984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-1094114323990369352008-07-14T16:14:00.000-07:002008-07-14T16:14:00.000-07:00BZ- hehehe, good joke! And I would contend accura...BZ-<BR/> <BR/>hehehe, good joke! And I would contend accurate. It seems to be a common theme of not questioning until one is older/out of the house so to speak. It does make me wonder why we aren't following Christ's example and being baptized at age 30? I think most people would have it together by then as far as having enough time to thoroughly research before deciding if this is truly the vballrhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11360672261026500984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-29648553009954894492008-07-13T23:24:00.000-07:002008-07-13T23:24:00.000-07:00Vball,You do draw a good point about baptisms for ...Vball,<BR/><BR/>You do draw a good point about baptisms for children. <BR/><BR/>What is the difference between baptizing an infant and an 8 year old?...<BR/><BR/>About 8 years *rimshot*<BR/><BR/>Seriously, it is splitting hairs for me. Even though infants have no choice in the matter, I think an 8 year old can be coerced to believe anything. 8 year olds still believe in Santa Claus and the likeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-74645443571125320522008-07-13T22:33:00.000-07:002008-07-13T22:33:00.000-07:00BZ- That wording "dark and loathsome" has always b...BZ- That wording "dark and loathsome" has always bothered me, a lot! I always wondered what people of different races think when they read it.<BR/><BR/>Ian- I like your point. I hadn't thought of it that way. That the BOM doesn't contain everything because they didn't necessarily know everything themselves? But then the D&C should be complete for our modern use-do you believe it is?<BR/><BR/>vballrhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11360672261026500984noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-90732517538243316832008-07-13T17:09:00.000-07:002008-07-13T17:09:00.000-07:00I know too. Jesus never setup a church, therefore ...I know too. Jesus never setup a church, therefore there were no churches to fail.Bishop Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05385909789743073477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-18798558840053567562008-07-12T14:25:00.000-07:002008-07-12T14:25:00.000-07:00TataYou said of the Keys etc being handed to Peter...Tata<BR/><BR/>You said of the Keys etc being handed to Peter in the NT and given to Nephi in the New World !<BR/><BR/>"This power includes the ability to bind and seal the marriage agreement for eternity. "<BR/><BR/>"Behold, thou art Nephi, and I am God. . . . Behold, I give unto you power, that whatsoever ye shall seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth Elder Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12151167504450803568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-12355171392627476432008-07-10T08:08:00.000-07:002008-07-10T08:08:00.000-07:00JS never claimed that the Book of Mormon contained...JS never claimed that the Book of Mormon contained all truth, and within its very pages it speaks about things which were revealed but were not permitted to be written. There was even the sealed portion of the Book of Mormon which contained information which was not permitted to be revealed until a later time.<BR/><BR/><I>(Most of the following comments I just cut and pasted since I was being tatabughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465431241615511545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-67087200321524847182008-07-09T11:37:00.001-07:002008-07-09T11:37:00.001-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Teresitahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05528002521904908827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-26878561572412703662008-07-09T11:37:00.000-07:002008-07-09T11:37:00.000-07:00I'm not sure which Mormon doctrines are supported ...I'm not sure which Mormon doctrines are supported by the book of Mormon, but I know at least one Mormon doctrine that is refuted by the book of Mormon.<BR/><BR/><I>Alma 11:28-31: "Now Zeezrom said: ‘Is there more than one God?’ and [Amulek] answered, ‘No.’ And Zeezrom said unto him again, ‘How knowest thou these things?’ And he said: ‘An angel hath made them known unto me.’" </I><BR/><BR/>Now theTeresitahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05528002521904908827noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-19745631106187522082008-07-09T08:33:00.000-07:002008-07-09T08:33:00.000-07:00When Joseph Smith told the Brethren [who ever the ...When Joseph Smith told the Brethren [who ever the crap that was] that the Book of Mormon was “the most correct of any book on earth” I believe he was holding back…in fact the Book of Mormon is a truly special book and perhaps the most amazingly wonderful book ever written. It is more valuable than any other book you will ever come across. Its uses are almost too numerous to count, but let me Cr@ighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06004865527640808734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-25089975257681602342008-07-07T20:57:00.000-07:002008-07-07T20:57:00.000-07:00Joe,Thank you for your comments. You bring up som...Joe,<BR/><BR/>Thank you for your comments. You bring up some very good points. There is no doubt that the original Book of Mormon taught that Jesus was God the father. The changes that were made to later publications of the Book of Mormon are a very big deal in my opinion because they demonstrate a doctrinal change.<BR/><BR/>Even with the current LDS version of the Book of Mormon, just readingBrother Zelphhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10138332337674962461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-90715846271066475652008-07-07T15:07:00.000-07:002008-07-07T15:07:00.000-07:00The form of Baptism and Temples are, at best, ambi...The form of Baptism and Temples are, at best, ambiguously taught in the BoM. <BR/><BR/>That said, what I find interesting is that you could ask the same question of the rest of the Mormon canon. Quite a bit of what is Mormon Doctrine cannot, in fact, be found laid out in Mormon scripture--quite a bit are interpretations, the origins of which can often be placed fairly precisely to Orson Hyde and Joehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04450897654318345683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-73868992717344688142008-07-06T16:46:00.000-07:002008-07-06T16:46:00.000-07:00"what doctrines that are practiced or taught by th..."what doctrines that are practiced or taught by the LDS church are based on the Book of Mormon?"<BR/><BR/>Off the top of my head, infant baptism is roundly criticized in the BoM, and is the primary reason why mormons oppose the practice.<BR/><BR/>The grace vs works argument is settled in the BoM. "For it is by grace we are saved, after all we can do." (They're both needed.) I'll look for some Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-7638319190485108872008-07-06T14:51:00.000-07:002008-07-06T14:51:00.000-07:00Ouch. I don't know, I think you'll probably find ...Ouch. I don't know, I think you'll probably find the New World Translation with even more corrections. =)NMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17019089593824237385noreply@blogger.com