tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post4671347205533932676..comments2023-10-30T06:51:58.621-07:00Comments on Disillusioned Mormon: "It Is Impossible For A Man To Be Saved In Ignorance" D&C 131:6Brother Zelphhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10138332337674962461noreply@blogger.comBlogger61125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-45064887412720377462007-08-16T16:27:00.000-07:002007-08-16T16:27:00.000-07:00Admin,I think you killed it...Admin,<BR/><BR/>I think you killed it...Jeremyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11726005550858397355noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-74537395941244429182007-08-13T16:47:00.000-07:002007-08-13T16:47:00.000-07:00Hey guys, check this out:http://www.lds-exchange.c...Hey guys, check this out:<BR/><BR/>http://www.lds-exchange.com<BR/><BR/>It's a pretty cool site where people both inside and outside of the LDS faith (or those with one foot in and one foot out) can all join together in open discussion about the LDS Church.<BR/><BR/>Thanks!<BR/>AdminGreenSTOPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14187933443878267593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-91682987465500008182007-08-12T13:05:00.000-07:002007-08-12T13:05:00.000-07:00I can't understand how any female in the LDS Churc...I can't understand how any female in the LDS Church can accept this whole concept of Polygamy being commanded of God.<BR/><BR/>Its the most senseless doctrine I've come across and its only purpose was so Mormon Men could become Gods of their own worlds with their many wives .<BR/><BR/>Women being just another commodity to serve the chosen elect of God who by the way could marry other mens wives Elder Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12151167504450803568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-39532757613388379542007-08-09T14:06:00.000-07:002007-08-09T14:06:00.000-07:00I think an excellent point is drawn regarding Brig...I think an excellent point is drawn regarding Brigham Young and polygamy. It is obvious that Brigham Young's marriages were absolutely polygamous marriages, as in he fathered many children with them. However where did Brigham Young learn this practice? From the Lord? Well, according to his own discourses, he did not even ask God if it was a true doctrine, he said that he is just carrying out Brother Zelphhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10138332337674962461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-77492356870397643542007-08-09T13:17:00.000-07:002007-08-09T13:17:00.000-07:00That's exactly my point, Russ. If the "sealing do...That's exactly my point, Russ. If the "sealing doctrine" was just a community thing to Joseph, why has it changed now?<BR/><BR/>Also, you wrote, <I>"Additionally, I don't believe that we are correct when we believe that the Saints were monolithic in their devotion to Joseph..."</I> Are you referring to my comment about Joseph being revered today? I meant TODAY he's revered. It's undeniable. Sister Mary Lisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00642154849765529070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-39791752475859083882007-08-09T13:16:00.000-07:002007-08-09T13:16:00.000-07:00RussellD&C 132.. you saidThe first section is obse...Russell<BR/><BR/>D&C 132.. you said<BR/><BR/>The first section is obsessively anti-adultery; <BR/><BR/><BR/>This is a big joke and nothing else . These men took/snatched mutiple wives and obtained them by 'calling' them , a mormon term to mean coersed them and threatening them if they disobeyed .This is nothing less than Adultery and Rape and to do it in the name of God is an absolute disgrace Elder Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12151167504450803568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-46603342826801108932007-08-09T12:57:00.000-07:002007-08-09T12:57:00.000-07:00Kudos, SML--seriously. I commend you for delving ...Kudos, SML--seriously. I commend you for delving into the sources and making a serious attempt to understand the man, even if you understand him differently than I do. And I also appreciate the generally respectful tone of your post.<BR/><BR/>That said, I think it an error to make some of the assumptions you have made concerning the meaning of the letter. First, let's say Joseph indeed "Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-27547425953927811202007-08-09T12:16:00.000-07:002007-08-09T12:16:00.000-07:00Russell ~Here's a letter Joseph wrote as found on ...Russell ~<BR/><BR/>Here's a <A HREF="http://deseretbook.com/personalwritings/77" REL="nofollow">letter</A> Joseph wrote as found on the Deseret Books website from the book <I>Personal Writings of Joseph Smith</I>. <BR/><BR/>It's a letter he wrote to the Whitney's three weeks after he was sealed to seventeen year old Sarah Ann Whitney.<BR/><BR/>Read the letter in its entirety. To me it screams Sister Mary Lisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00642154849765529070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-10241274550423799812007-08-09T12:02:00.000-07:002007-08-09T12:02:00.000-07:00What do you think about Joseph promising eternal s...What do you think about Joseph promising eternal salvation to Helen Mar Kimball's entire extended family if they'd give her (age 14) to him as a plural wife? <BR/><BR/>This to me was shocking because I thought we were supposed to work individually for eternal salvation, and do all the ordinances required such as baptism, endowments, temple marriage. I've been taught this my whole life at churchSister Mary Lisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00642154849765529070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-33509377147418523462007-08-09T11:25:00.000-07:002007-08-09T11:25:00.000-07:00I don't believe these marriages of Joseph Smith we...I don't believe these marriages of Joseph Smith were merely social or eternal networks of relationship.<BR/><BR/>1 If this was the case why would Emma be very angry at it . <BR/><BR/>2 Why does it state specifically in D&C 132 that replenishing the earth was its purpose.<BR/><BR/>3 Why does it say they have to be Virgins in D&C 132 or they would be destroyed.<BR/><BR/>4 Why the secrecy if the Elder Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12151167504450803568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-62356506841756622922007-08-09T10:20:00.000-07:002007-08-09T10:20:00.000-07:00You can believe as you will re: Joseph's use of th...You can believe as you will re: Joseph's use of the vision. But the evidence I presented (at least as I see it) indicates otherwise. He was tight-lipped about it, only publishing the account three times in his life. If it were the THE seminal event, you would expect it to play a more central role. When it was mentioned, Joseph's role was diminished; it was the opening of a new dispensation Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-85878418654994359612007-08-07T19:52:00.000-07:002007-08-07T19:52:00.000-07:00If you want to know the truth about Christian orig...If you want to know the truth about Christian origins, visit this site <A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/" REL="nofollow">http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/</A><BR/><BR/>It is amazing how much of Christianity was borrowed from paganismAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-83794916157572046782007-08-07T17:18:00.000-07:002007-08-07T17:18:00.000-07:00Well, I know that Joseph Smith DID use God and oth...Well, I know that Joseph Smith DID use God and other visions as reason for things he gained, and his status as a prophet as given him by God was used to gain things as well. It's all related in my opinion. Had he not said he saw and heard God, he may not have been able to convince others he was a prophet. Had he not told them he was a prophet with God directing his every move, he may not not Sister Mary Lisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00642154849765529070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-67433314337267554512007-08-07T17:04:00.000-07:002007-08-07T17:04:00.000-07:00So many comments...SML--Alas, if only...but then a...So many comments...<BR/><BR/>SML--Alas, if only...<BR/>but then again, if we can believe in abstract philosophies about secularism, empiricism, then the existence of God can have an equal seat at the table...in my neck of the woods, forcing religion to the back of the philosophical bus in an act of philosophical segregation ain't cool.<BR/><BR/>As a side note, EJ--both of those examples are Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-30208055688531596522007-08-07T16:04:00.000-07:002007-08-07T16:04:00.000-07:00Russell, I would like to point out a few things.Le...Russell, I would like to point out a few things.<BR/><BR/>Let's say that Joseph Smith did in fact see God the Father and Jesus. Let's even say that the Book of Mormon is true. Does that give Joseph Smith a license to do whatever he wants, because he saw God and gave us the Book of Mormon?<BR/><BR/>If you said you saw God, I would think that is great, and I would wish that I had a similar Brother Zelphhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10138332337674962461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-66744555954369782772007-08-07T15:43:00.000-07:002007-08-07T15:43:00.000-07:00Russell ~ HAVE you seen God? I won't mock you, I'...Russell ~ <BR/><BR/>HAVE you seen God? I won't mock you, I'm just curious. You may email me if you'd rather not publicly answer.Sister Mary Lisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00642154849765529070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-87272035452427175832007-08-07T15:41:00.000-07:002007-08-07T15:41:00.000-07:00joshsuthJoseph Smith married at least 10 women who...joshsuth<BR/><BR/>Joseph Smith married at least 10 women who were already married , He married Orson Hydes wife while he was on a mission ( sent by Joseph Smith ).<BR/><BR/>He married a 14 year old Helen Marr Kimball , supposedly ensuring hers and her families well being in the eterntities .<BR/><BR/>He asked for his followers wives .<BR/><BR/>ALL according to Him that it WAS COMMANDED HE DO THISElder Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12151167504450803568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-87210633491817363712007-08-07T14:27:00.000-07:002007-08-07T14:27:00.000-07:00I do not condemn JS not for his seeing God and say...I do not condemn JS not for his seeing God and saying so, but rather for his seeing God, and saying so <I>in order to gain things</I> such as power, support, and other mens' wives.<BR/><BR/>I'd love to discuss God with you or anyone else, Joshsuth. I will do my best to respect your beliefs and expect the same from you. I'm sorry if your love for Joseph is hurt by my low opinion of some of his Sister Mary Lisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00642154849765529070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-30418063789388481592007-08-07T14:11:00.000-07:002007-08-07T14:11:00.000-07:00SML, Just like Russell said, as soon as someone ca...SML, Just like Russell said, as soon as someone came out said they did (JS), you immediately would condemn them. So i guess discussing God between me and you would be a waste of time.joshsuthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11341370599698887172noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-73712244482020712922007-08-07T14:10:00.000-07:002007-08-07T14:10:00.000-07:00Russell ~Joshsuth claims people here who don't bel...Russell ~<BR/><BR/>Joshsuth claims people here who don't believe God exists are wasting their time. I was simply refuting that if I'm wasting my time, it's no more than he is.<BR/><BR/>As for if you told me that you had seen God with your own two eyes, I'd say good for you. I'm sure if that happened to you then it was a very special experience that touched you deeply. <BR/><BR/>I'd also claim Sister Mary Lisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00642154849765529070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-15011268734795052692007-08-07T13:34:00.000-07:002007-08-07T13:34:00.000-07:00SML:You say that since neither of us have seen God...SML:<BR/><BR/>You say that since neither of us have seen God; therefore, it makes no difference who discusses it.<BR/><BR/>My question: let's say I HAVE indeed seen God and say as much (though I would normally keep such things to myself). Would that make a difference to you? Or would you echo the criticisms of the ancient anti-Christians (Celsus, in particular) who called the first witness to Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-40328811659854385022007-08-07T12:10:00.000-07:002007-08-07T12:10:00.000-07:00Joshsuth ~One more thing. You wrote, "you are try...Joshsuth ~<BR/><BR/>One more thing. You wrote, <I>"you are trying to comprehend something concerning God, when you have no fundamental belief that he even exists..."</I><BR/><BR/>I see no difference between ME trying to comprehend something concerning God and YOU trying to comprehend something concerning God. Neither of us has seen God personally to actually KNOW God exists, so everything I saySister Mary Lisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00642154849765529070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-29702331712659573212007-08-07T10:20:00.000-07:002007-08-07T10:20:00.000-07:00JoshSuth Russel is an 'Orthodox' Latter Days Saint...JoshSuth <BR/><BR/>Russel is an 'Orthodox' Latter Days Saint ( His words) .What does this mean to you.He can come across educated/intellectual etc but it still doesn't make the Indians Descendants of Lehi , or address the issue of the church purposely misleading members and investigators .<BR/><BR/>You keep saying that we don't even know if we believe in a God so what is the point in discussing Elder Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12151167504450803568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-56720940791419077622007-08-07T10:10:00.000-07:002007-08-07T10:10:00.000-07:00Hi Joshsuth ~I'm not confused with Mormon doctrine...Hi Joshsuth ~<BR/><BR/>I'm not confused with Mormon doctrine. It's interesting to discuss God and his attributes as taught in Mormone doctrine, because when I look closely at him with open eyes, he seems to be pretty into favoritism, glory-seeking, sexism, irrationality, and powermongering. And he wants us all to seek after these things as well and become like him too. <BR/><BR/>I believed God Sister Mary Lisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00642154849765529070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-5594596570368746622007-08-07T09:44:00.000-07:002007-08-07T09:44:00.000-07:00Its sounds like a majority of the people on this b...Its sounds like a majority of the people on this blog dont even believe in Christ, or even have a fundamental belief in God. So I would understand how you would get confused with mormon doctrine when it concerns God, because you are trying to comprehend something concerning God, when you have no fundamental belief that he even exists. Its like me trying to understand the science of landing on thejoshsuthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11341370599698887172noreply@blogger.com