tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post5252759404871189852..comments2023-10-30T06:51:58.621-07:00Comments on Disillusioned Mormon: The Smithsonian Institue Considers the Book of Mormon a Historical DocumentBrother Zelphhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10138332337674962461noreply@blogger.comBlogger185125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-75858843466267809662008-07-02T04:06:00.000-07:002008-07-02T04:06:00.000-07:00Can anyone correct my spelling and missing words :...Can anyone correct my spelling and missing words :( <BR/><BR/>I was in a rush.Elder Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12151167504450803568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-62459154408260836172008-07-02T04:05:00.000-07:002008-07-02T04:05:00.000-07:00You said"Regarding the link you gave me about Mart...You said<BR/><BR/>"Regarding the link you gave me about Martin Harris saying that the eight never saw the plates physically, I think you have also misread that quote. "<BR/><BR/>It’s the wrong quote , though it does affirm That Martin Harris says he never saw the plates except in vision . <BR/><BR/>You said <BR/><BR/>“I would like to see the actual statement by Martin Harris if you have access Elder Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12151167504450803568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-76542174486603048972008-07-01T09:56:00.000-07:002008-07-01T09:56:00.000-07:00tataYou said"Regarding the link you gave me about ...tata<BR/><BR/>You said<BR/><BR/>"Regarding the link you gave me about Martin Harris saying that the eight never saw the plates physically, I think you have also misread that quote. "<BR/><BR/>I'll take a look as soon as practical.I've already missed daylight each day trying to keep up with you :)<BR/><BR/>Just one point to make as it seems appropriate in the discussion.<BR/><BR/>The New TestamentElder Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12151167504450803568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-15406918722554190732008-07-01T09:31:00.000-07:002008-07-01T09:31:00.000-07:00Tata- I understand where you are coming from. It...Tata- I understand where you are coming from. It is almost irresponsible to try to make decisions when you have very limited knowledge of a topic like early Christianity, because I feel that I am in the same position. I don't know very much about early Christianity and I know that Mormon Heretic has been studying that area recently and he has brought up some interesting things on his blog.<BR/Brother Zelphhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10138332337674962461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-83134676093663494082008-07-01T05:32:00.000-07:002008-07-01T05:32:00.000-07:00MH,I actually left the door open for the possibili...MH,<BR/><BR/>I actually left the door open for the possibility of women holding the priesthood when I said, "maybe." The reasons I think "maybe" are the similar to the reasons Zelph has given. Also, there were prophetesses in the Bible, although I don't know if they had priesthood authority. Now while I did say maybe, I also said that I doubt it, because I do.<BR/><BR/>BR,<BR/><BR/>Did I say Itatabughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465431241615511545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-24110717900076957072008-06-30T23:39:00.000-07:002008-06-30T23:39:00.000-07:00Tata, If we are to believe that Joseph Smith resto...Tata, <BR/><BR/>If we are to believe that Joseph Smith restored the gospel as practiced by early Christianity, why don't we study more about early Christianity?<BR/><BR/>One thing I have learned in the very little I have studied is that when we talk about early Christianity, it was very diverse. There was no single authority directing Christians. In fact there were more than just 4 gospels and Brother Zelphhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10138332337674962461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-66203001108257315722008-06-30T22:29:00.000-07:002008-06-30T22:29:00.000-07:00tata,I think your true self has finally shown its ...tata,<BR/><BR/>I think your true self has finally shown its face. You refuse to consider anything that is not taught by the church...wow, very enlightening.<BR/><BR/>BZ,<BR/><BR/>That is exactly what I was referring to. Not just the Gospel itself, but all the research that has gone into what Jesus would have done, how he would have treated people, how he treated Judas.<BR/><BR/>There is plenty Bishop Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05385909789743073477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-57327627907477036672008-06-30T21:46:00.000-07:002008-06-30T21:46:00.000-07:00Gospel of Judas or not, that is not what the churc...Gospel of Judas or not, that is not what the church teaches, so far as I am aware, and if I'm teaching by what is taught in the church, I don't see how that constitutes false doctrine, unless of course it is false doctrine according to the church of BR, or whoever else happens to accept the Gospel of Judas as true. If that is the case, then I suppose I'm teaching all kinds of false doctrine tatabughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465431241615511545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-37301903255197420582008-06-30T18:30:00.000-07:002008-06-30T18:30:00.000-07:00Tata, I believe that BR is referring to the Gnosti...Tata, I believe that BR is referring to the Gnostic gospel book "<A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Judas" REL="nofollow">The Gospel of Judas"</A><BR/><BR/>BR correct me if I am wrong, but I believe this is the text that it is based on.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-70452948328284027492008-06-30T15:13:00.000-07:002008-06-30T15:13:00.000-07:00BR,Fine. The only instance in which there is any ...BR,<BR/><BR/>Fine. The only instance in which there is any indication that the Nephites know what was said in the camps of the Lamanites when they were drunken was when the Nephites sent someone from among them who was a descendant of Laman to the Lamanites. This "Lamanite" pretended to be an escaped prisoner of the Nephites who had stolen wine from the Nephites. The only reason the Nephites tatabughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465431241615511545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-45539031912596199292008-06-30T12:29:00.000-07:002008-06-30T12:29:00.000-07:00tata,Spare me nothing. Please point out my obvious...tata,<BR/><BR/>Spare me nothing. Please point out my obvious error regarding how only a narrator can know what happens in two camps when he could only have been privy to one.<BR/><BR/>Regarding the Apostles, EJ is pointing out that Apostles are special witnesses to christ and as such, should not have to lean on other's testimonies. This makes sense to me. Shouldn't they have a sure knowledge? Bishop Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05385909789743073477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-44761650083892799512008-06-30T08:26:00.000-07:002008-06-30T08:26:00.000-07:00Sorry, the quote should've said "Joseph Smith NOT ...Sorry, the quote should've said "Joseph Smith NOT excepted." (emphasis mine)tatabughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465431241615511545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-6725457714342096012008-06-30T08:23:00.000-07:002008-06-30T08:23:00.000-07:00EJ, I think that at least half of your comment bel...EJ, <BR/><BR/>I think that at least half of your comment belongs on the other post about revelations. However, I will respond to the portion of your comment which is pertinent to this discussion.<BR/><BR/>You said, regarding William Smith:<BR/><BR/>"Why didn’t he say Joseph used a stone instead of the U & T .Its confusing .Which was it ?"<BR/><BR/>Though no one knows today knows the answer to tatabughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465431241615511545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-67694795828075263822008-06-29T10:59:00.000-07:002008-06-29T10:59:00.000-07:00Tata I can only just keep up …… here are a few tho...Tata <BR/><BR/>I can only just keep up …… here are a few thoughts , I’ll scan the relevant pages of my Grant Palmer book about the BofM witnesses and email them to you ……..<BR/><BR/><BR/>You said <BR/><BR/>”Here is what Billy Graham said in response to Martin Luther King's "I have a Dream" speech in 1963: "Only when Christ comes again will little white children of Alabama walk hand in hand with Elder Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12151167504450803568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-2587813984795380512008-06-29T06:51:00.000-07:002008-06-29T06:51:00.000-07:00BR,Okay, let's suppose that the statement by BY is...BR,<BR/><BR/>Okay, let's suppose that the statement by BY is correct in that the witnesses began to doubt that they saw an angel. That does not necessarily mean that they ever denied it. Doubt and denial are different. But the fact remains that on their actual deathbeds, they firmly testified to what they had seen. But what about the 8 witnesses who saw and handled the plates? I don't recalltatabughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465431241615511545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-11437592808844031212008-06-28T14:30:00.000-07:002008-06-28T14:30:00.000-07:00tata,The witnesses did NOT claim the BoM was true ...tata,<BR/><BR/>The witnesses did NOT claim the BoM was true til their deathbed as you continue to state. You just choose to ignore all evidence that proves otherwise, including the BY quote I provided.<BR/><BR/>Regarding Strang, where do you think he came up with the idea to con people with phony plates? Everything mirrored JS's story. It stands to reason the phony plates mirrored him as well.<BRBishop Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05385909789743073477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-50087949088917505112008-06-28T13:24:00.000-07:002008-06-28T13:24:00.000-07:00EJ,You said, "It seems that William was not an eye...EJ,<BR/><BR/>You said, <I>"It seems that William was not an eye witness to the U&T or Breastplate but instead just recalling what Joseph Smith told him about the U&T.<BR/><BR/>The clue is in his words : quote<BR/><BR/>" "Among other things WE inquired minutely about the Urim and Thummim and the breastplate. WE asked him what was meant by the expression "two rims of a bow," which held the former. tatabughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465431241615511545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-28720939754811199562008-06-27T14:05:00.000-07:002008-06-27T14:05:00.000-07:00tata you said " Here's what William has said regar...tata <BR/><BR/>you said <BR/><BR/>" Here's what William has said regarding the Urim and Thummim and the breastplate in an interview. The source of the information is "Smith, William P. Interview by J.W. Peterson and W.S. Pender. The Rod of Iron 1, no. 3 (February 1924): 7." <BR/><BR/><BR/>It seems that William was not an eye witness to the U&T or Breastplate but instead just recalling what JosephElder Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12151167504450803568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-63573802805722058202008-06-27T09:04:00.000-07:002008-06-27T09:04:00.000-07:00"If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon...<I>"If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to ‘separate myself from among the Latter-day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, so should it be done unto them.’ In the spring of 1838, the heads of the church Bishop Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05385909789743073477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-60062792305027388142008-06-27T00:14:00.000-07:002008-06-27T00:14:00.000-07:00BR,You either missed my point entirely or you just...BR,<BR/><BR/>You either missed my point entirely or you just chose to ignore it. <BR/><BR/>That is, that Joseph behaved so uncharacteristically like a con man in his efforts to involve others in so many of the details of his "deception." That is NOT what con men do. He didn't have to allow others to see the plates or have them provide testimony of it. <BR/><BR/>And no, I didn't forget the parttatabughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465431241615511545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-71241956726556277712008-06-26T21:20:00.000-07:002008-06-26T21:20:00.000-07:00tata,JS could very well have been a great con man....tata,<BR/><BR/>JS could very well have been a great con man. You actually argue for that point yourself. He would be stupid to trust people (outside his immediate family) with his con, so he had to dupe them too.<BR/><BR/>It is not unusual to create brass plates that resemble gold, but they could have been tin for all we know since no one ever saw them with natural eyes.<BR/><BR/>You keep Bishop Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05385909789743073477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-78753965579472998972008-06-26T15:27:00.000-07:002008-06-26T15:27:00.000-07:00EJ, You said: "Would he go as far as to dupe his ...EJ, <BR/><BR/>You said: <BR/><BR/><I>"Would he go as far as to dupe his family with home made props if he was a con man ? I believe so.Thats the nature of con men."</I><BR/> <BR/>Okay, let's suppose that the breastplate was a prop. That would mean the gold plates were also a prop.<BR/> <BR/>Let's examine that shall we? So Joseph Smith, the con man, fashioned a set of plates, gold ones at that.tatabughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465431241615511545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-80407182347204194762008-06-25T13:37:00.000-07:002008-06-25T13:37:00.000-07:00EJ,Here's what William has said regarding the Urim...EJ,<BR/><BR/>Here's what William has said regarding the Urim and Thummim and the breastplate in an interview. The source of the information is "Smith, William P. Interview by J.W. Peterson and W.S. Pender. <I>The Rod of Iron 1, no. 3 (February 1924): 7."</I> <BR/> <BR/><I>"Among other things we inquired minutely about the Urim and Thummim and the breastplate. We asked him what was meant by thetatabughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465431241615511545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-53641076606395152612008-06-25T12:28:00.000-07:002008-06-25T12:28:00.000-07:00Tata Ok I found the lucy Mack Smith quote from her...Tata <BR/><BR/>Ok I found the lucy Mack Smith quote from her journal where she says she saw the Urim and Thummim ( two smooth three-cornered diamonds set in glass, and the glasses were set in silver bows, ) and breastplate wrapped in a thin muslin handkerchief....<BR/><BR/>I couldn't find a source yet for Wiliam Smith seeing the Urim and Thummim but found this quote attributed to him when Elder Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12151167504450803568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-25494128083261882142008-06-24T17:57:00.000-07:002008-06-24T17:57:00.000-07:00EJ,I truly appreciate your last comment. It had a...EJ,<BR/><BR/>I truly appreciate your last comment. It had a much kinder, gentler tone. It means a great deal to me that you expressed the difficulty you face in your decision to oppose the church, and that you don't delight in it.<BR/><BR/>I'm sorry for the loss of friendships that you've had to suffer, and I'm sure your motivations for sharing your knowledge and understanding with others were tatabughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465431241615511545noreply@blogger.com