tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post7405992506856517470..comments2023-10-30T06:51:58.621-07:00Comments on Disillusioned Mormon: Revelations in the LDS churchBrother Zelphhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10138332337674962461noreply@blogger.comBlogger278125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-81517766026588493092009-10-10T07:49:56.262-07:002009-10-10T07:49:56.262-07:00Official Declarations 1 AND 2 ARE REVELATIONS!!!!
...Official Declarations 1 AND 2 ARE REVELATIONS!!!!<br />I BELIEVE IN THEM!!!Jakehttp://youtube.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-54423717705512787682008-08-06T09:33:00.000-07:002008-08-06T09:33:00.000-07:00EJ,"Why would Clayton record this or even make it ...EJ,<BR/><BR/>"Why would Clayton record this or even make it all up?"<BR/><BR/>I doubt he thought he was making it up. People hear rumors and speculation all the time, and it gets passed on and twisted into something other than what it started out to be. Like I said, everyone in Nauvoo was excited about the plates and there was all kinds of speculation going on about them, and it is likely that tatabughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465431241615511545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-70706645133180924362008-08-06T07:34:00.000-07:002008-08-06T07:34:00.000-07:00Tata”Regarding the Kinderhook Plates, the only evi...Tata<BR/><BR/>”Regarding the Kinderhook Plates, the only evidence that links Joseph to them is the statement you gave which is actually from the journal of William Clayton. Clayton's journal entry was added to the serialized "History of Joseph Smith" printed in the Deseret News in Utah in 1856, long after the death of Joseph,”<BR/><BR/>”It is possible that this was just rumor or hearsay on the Elder Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12151167504450803568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-52187910879816544242008-08-05T17:17:00.000-07:002008-08-05T17:17:00.000-07:00EJ,Regarding the Kinderhook Plates, the only evide...EJ,<BR/><BR/>Regarding the Kinderhook Plates, the only evidence that links Joseph to them is the statement you gave which is actually from the journal of William Clayton. Clayton's journal entry was added to the serialized "History of Joseph Smith" printed in the Deseret News in Utah in 1856, long after the death of Joseph, though it was changed to be in the first person from Joseph's tatabughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465431241615511545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-36409912040171178692008-08-05T14:48:00.000-07:002008-08-05T14:48:00.000-07:00Tatayour comments in "...."“Since their ...Tata<BR/><BR/>your comments in "...."<BR/><BR/>“Since their plan was foiled, seeing that Joseph did not retranslate the material that was lost, then do you honestly think they would come forward and say, "Here are the lost 116 pages. We made some changes to it so we could try and show that Joseph Smith was a fraud." No, of course not. They would not reveal themselves; that Elder Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12151167504450803568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-80849184249287722242008-08-05T11:40:00.000-07:002008-08-05T11:40:00.000-07:00EJ,"Can the doctrine of God was once a man be foun...EJ,<BR/><BR/>"Can the doctrine of God was once a man be found in any LDS canonised doctrines?<BR/><BR/>Is this likely to get dismissed in the future as Joseph Smith’s opinion?"<BR/><BR/>No, it cannot be found in any canonized doctrines. Since it is not canonized, we cannot say if it is doctrine or not. We can only know if it is Joseph Smith's opinion if we receive revelation which contradicts tatabughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465431241615511545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-89610401078816747832008-08-05T11:29:00.000-07:002008-08-05T11:29:00.000-07:00BR,"By reading the entire chapter, it is obvious t...BR,<BR/><BR/>"By reading the entire chapter, it is obvious that this chapter is not about Satan. Why does the LDS church still cling to this misinterpretation then?...Either they are covering something up or they are ignorant of the scriptures. Which is it?"<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure that it is either. It is possible that the church doesn't understand that the chapter isn't technically referring to tatabughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465431241615511545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-57430329301439846082008-08-05T10:54:00.000-07:002008-08-05T10:54:00.000-07:00BR,"In both cases the appropriate words were ...BR,<BR/><BR/>"In both cases the appropriate words were given to JS which he dictated to his scribe. No where do we hear about JS stopping in the middle saying, "hey, that sounds exactly like Isaiah chapter 14. I think I'll just copy from the KJV instead, because that will be more accurate than words taken directly from God." Especially since he would still have to go thru the tatabughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465431241615511545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-85297166191068981832008-08-05T06:38:00.000-07:002008-08-05T06:38:00.000-07:00TataTo BR’s comment about TBM’s picking and choosi...Tata<BR/><BR/>To BR’s comment about TBM’s picking and choosing what to believe from Brigham Young, you said :<BR/><BR/>“Well, the only way to really know is by comparing to accepted and canonized doctrines. Where there is no doctrine, I believe that good common sense plays a part as well as guidance by the spirit.”<BR/><BR/>Can the doctrine of God was once a man be found in any LDS canonised Elder Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12151167504450803568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-5715499881236915412008-08-04T10:23:00.000-07:002008-08-04T10:23:00.000-07:00Regarding Lucifer. You want to agree to disagree a...Regarding Lucifer. You want to agree to disagree about the translation and that is fine. It doesn't matter whether the term Lucifer or howl is used here. By reading the entire chapter, it is obvious that this chapter is not about Satan. Why does the LDS church still cling to this misinterpretation then?<BR/>See: http://scriptures.lds.org/en/isa/14<BR/><BR/>Either they are covering something up orBishop Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05385909789743073477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-90520340602564691072008-08-04T10:06:00.000-07:002008-08-04T10:06:00.000-07:00Ok, so we agree that JS copied verses from the Bib...Ok, so we agree that JS copied verses from the Bible into the BofM. In the case of 2 Nephi, he copied considerable content. The problem we now have is that this contradicts everything we know about the translation process. What we know is that there were 2 methods used to perform the translation.<BR/>1. Urim and Thumim<BR/>2. Seer Stone<BR/>In both cases the appropriate words were given to JS Bishop Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05385909789743073477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-5926288970558497552008-08-04T09:02:00.000-07:002008-08-04T09:02:00.000-07:00BR,Here is additional information regarding Lucife...BR,<BR/><BR/>Here is additional information regarding Lucifer from Rene A. Krywult (FairLDS):<BR/><BR/>"The KJV translates the passage as "Lucifer, son of the dawn". <BR/><BR/>In Greek mythology, Phosphoros, the last star to be seen in the morning, was the son of Eos, the goddess of the dawn. The Greeks would talk about him as "Phosphoros, son of Eos". Phosphoros, like Lucifer means "lightbearer"tatabughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465431241615511545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-29684453915852164312008-08-04T07:54:00.000-07:002008-08-04T07:54:00.000-07:00BR,"This is like shooting a dead horse to REALLY m...BR,<BR/><BR/>"This is like shooting a dead horse to REALLY make sure it is dead."<BR/><BR/>Well, that's because Satan isn't satisfied until the corruption and evil have completely gotten hold of the hearts of all people. He will stop at nothing, and there is no extreme to which he will not go.<BR/><BR/>"I suppose that only the quotes that TBMs use can be considered doctrine? Who makes this tatabughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465431241615511545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-64790070929965800862008-08-04T07:10:00.000-07:002008-08-04T07:10:00.000-07:00BR,Well, I guess we will just have to disagree wit...BR,<BR/><BR/>Well, I guess we will just have to disagree with what the translation really should be.<BR/><BR/>But regarding the assertion that Lucifer does not belong in the Book of Mormon, I believe that you are correct in saying that Joseph copied the KJV of Isaiah, at least in most instances. However, I don't see this as a problem. We've been over this before, I think, or at least I tatabughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465431241615511545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-24056310875620107722008-08-02T14:53:00.000-07:002008-08-02T14:53:00.000-07:00tata,"Not all doctrines are or were corrupt, but g...tata,<BR/><BR/><I>"Not all doctrines are or were corrupt, but governments have been able to ensure the corruption of religion by controlling and institutionalizing it."</I><BR/><BR/>This is like shooting a dead horse to REALLY make sure it is dead.<BR/><BR/><I>"I believe we always have. I have no problem with it, but not all of Brigham's words can be considered doctrine."</I><BR/><BR/>I suppose Bishop Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05385909789743073477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-17619920063226649182008-08-02T14:38:00.000-07:002008-08-02T14:38:00.000-07:00tata,I did not get my information from a masonic s...tata,<BR/><BR/>I did not get my information from a masonic site. It is all over the internet. Not sure why you can't find it. The source I used for the list of texts was bible-truths.com, but there are countless articles that support that eill was mistranslated into ell which means shining one, and became Lucifer after that.<BR/><BR/>Regardless, even the mistranslated verse would not describeBishop Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05385909789743073477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-81416667488579202552008-08-02T07:54:00.000-07:002008-08-02T07:54:00.000-07:00BR,All of the information I was able to find regar...BR,<BR/><BR/>All of the information I was able to find regarding the original Hebrew lists the word which has been translated as Lucifer, as helel ben shahar (with various spellings) but all with the same meaning, which is, morning star, son of dawn (among other similar translations).<BR/><BR/>I found the exact information you found on a Freemasonry blog (which, by the way, seems very interested tatabughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465431241615511545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-5672947537493317732008-08-01T11:21:00.000-07:002008-08-01T11:21:00.000-07:00tata,That was a nice attempt, but is really just a...tata,<BR/><BR/>That was a nice attempt, but is really just an example of FARMS/FAIRLDS practicing extreme rationalization and revisionist history. Surely they have access to what I am about to provide, but choose to ignore because it is in direct conflict with a pretty major part of LDS doctrine that if proven false proves JS merely made up the BofM using materials available during his time.<BR/>Bishop Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05385909789743073477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-30428523092158056862008-08-01T11:16:00.000-07:002008-08-01T11:16:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Bishop Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05385909789743073477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-18781346594226853682008-08-01T05:57:00.000-07:002008-08-01T05:57:00.000-07:00EJ,You are very welcome. I am happy to help you o...EJ,<BR/><BR/>You are very welcome. I am happy to help you out if I can. <BR/><BR/>Regarding missionary work and forgiveness of sins, I honestly had never heard that before. It's very interesting. I will have to learn more about that.tatabughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465431241615511545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-50293600298181069602008-08-01T05:54:00.000-07:002008-08-01T05:54:00.000-07:00BR,This is in reply to your first email. I will r...BR,<BR/><BR/>This is in reply to your first email. I will respond to the second one later.<BR/><BR/>Regarding "Lucifer," I have to disagree. From a literalist point of view, you are correct, but with Isaiah there is so much figurative language and numerous parallels in his writing that you have to look further to find the real meaning. While it is possible that Lucifer truly does tatabughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465431241615511545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-32431113551819521212008-07-31T16:30:00.000-07:002008-07-31T16:30:00.000-07:00TataThank you for your email and your help in pray...Tata<BR/><BR/>Thank you for your email and your help in prayer on my behalf and further offer of contacting my TBM friend(or at least I hope she is a friend).Its most likely I will ask you to write to her some time later.Thank you for that.It helped soften the pain I am feeling.<BR/><BR/>Just a couple of points on the regular things of discussion/debate<BR/><BR/>You said <BR/><BR/>"So you Elder Josephhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12151167504450803568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-24781973698055873502008-07-31T00:16:00.000-07:002008-07-31T00:16:00.000-07:00Wow, where to start. A lot of items here so I may ...Wow, where to start. A lot of items here so I may skip some due to space.<BR/><BR/><B>Temple Ceremony speaks of counterfeit priesthood of Satan</B><BR/><BR/>Well the Temple Ceremony also tells P, J and J to tell Adam to live according to the Bible and BofM...neither of which existed at the time, so probably not a literal example.<BR/><BR/><B>James 4:7 "He cannot know our thoughts unless we speak Bishop Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05385909789743073477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-57563883805896243482008-07-29T12:01:00.000-07:002008-07-29T12:01:00.000-07:00tata,Wow, everything you just commented on breaks ...tata,<BR/><BR/>Wow, everything you just commented on breaks down on so many levels. I don't have time to fully respond now, but I will make a few quick points and respond fully later.<BR/><BR/>The verse in Isaiah referred to by Romney is not talking about Satan. It is clearly talking about the King of Babylon. Romney, Mckay, and any other LDS leaders (or non-LDS) that refers to Satan as Lucifer Bishop Rickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05385909789743073477noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8445204255254702636.post-64109956258350480662008-07-29T11:50:00.000-07:002008-07-29T11:50:00.000-07:00vballrh,If you are truly interested in salvaging y...vballrh,<BR/><BR/>If you are truly interested in salvaging your faith, I highly recommend to you a book I am currently reading, entitled "Shaken Faith Syndrome," by Michael R. Ash. <BR/><BR/>I bought it primarily out of curiosity, and it has provided me with some excellent insight into the issues surrounding the church and the tactics used by anti-mormons. <BR/><BR/>I've read a great deal of tatabughttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01465431241615511545noreply@blogger.com