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Saturday, December 22, 2007

Elder Ballard Encourages Members to Create Blogs

http://www.sltrib.com/faith/ci_7743894


" A prominent LDS Church official has urged young people to blog, create Web sites and take advantage of social networks online to help improve people's perceptions of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
"May I ask that you join the conversation by participating on the Internet. . .to share the gospel and explain in simple, clear terms the message of the restoration," M. Russell Ballard told graduates at weekend commencement exercises at Brigham Young University-Hawaii."

Individual members are encouraged to self-publish blogs and websites about the church. This certainly is a change in direction for the church, as it has recently banned individual wards from publishing independent websites.

I think it is ultimately a good idea and will lead to forums where members and non-members alike can more openly engage in dialogue regarding Mormon topics outside of the structured Sunday School classes. I think already has begun, but this move will open the floodgates further.

When LDS members have tough questions, the internet is a great forum where even believing members can communicate. I think this will break people away from the standard recycled Sunday School lessons and I look forward to seeing more LDS blogs and websites.

I believe that everyone has a right to express themselves freely and worship they way they choose.

Disillusioned Mormon

32 comments:

Elder Joseph said...

Elder Ballard seems to think that we all are discussing Mormonism and not getting the true picture ?

So his new brainstorming idea is for ordinary members to put us all right ? lol What a Joke .

I think when ordinary members attempt to correct us they will be surprised themselves about the real history.

How will they cope finding out The Hero Joseph Smith was demanding other mens wives , marrying other mens wives , convincing a 14 year old that its in her Interest to marry him for her own and family's salvation.

And the list is endless.

I've been inactive now for over six weeks and my convert friend (now unbeliever )is having to explain to ward members why I have given up .He mentions the Adam God doctrine for starters and they all say " Whaaaat I never heard of that " ! lol

The LDS ship is sinking .It hit an iceberg when the Internet came on board.( Lyndon Lamborn quote)

All the whitewashing is being revealed. I have only sympathy for ordinary members who have been duped.They deserve better.

I'd love to see the Apostles and Seventies sat around there Pc's holding their hands over their faces wondering " What on earth are we going to do?"

They deserve to be exposed for all that Arrogance and deception.

Jeremy said...

"I think when ordinary members attempt to correct us they will be surprised themselves about the real history."

Perhaps, but it might affect them just the opposite... look at Tata, stronger in her faith than before.

Regardless we wont see a complete collapse of the church because there will always be people who want it to be true so much that they will over look or rationalize problems away.

Anonymous said...

elder joseph

You wrote:

The LDS ship is sinking .It hit an iceberg when the Internet came on board.( Lyndon Lamborn quote)

I have a different point of view. I think that the wheat and tares are being identified. It take opposition to bring this about. The internet is helping.

I don't understand why some people get answers to their prayers while others don't. But I do know it isn't God's fault.

When I first learned of the difficulties you're referring to I was disillusioned, shocked, and etc. But I learned for myself that the restoration of the gospel is true in answer to prayer. It was the kind of answer that is undeniable.

I wish I could somehow share my experience with you.

All that I can hope for is that you will have your own experience as I did. One needs to go to God and plead for an answer. It really is simple. Ask to know if the Book of Mormon is true.

As for Adam God doctrine and a host of other things that trouble you, there are answers to be had for these questions too. I suggest starting with the Book of Mormon because it is a book with a promise and the angels are near those who sincerely seek to know the truth about it.

Elder Joseph said...

anonymous

Of course I hold out the possibility that the church might be true.But the overwhelming evidence is against that .There's more chance that JW's are the true church etc as they have even less absurdities in their history.

Its difficult to start with the book of mormon because I already know of the plageurisms and problems with it such as the animals and plants mentioned which didn't exist in the New world until the Europeans brought them.

I don't believe God is a hoaxster and would hide or distort the history of our world .The BofM does not fit with world history on just about every single point.

Chariots and The Wheel is a massive problem on its own having no historical impact in the new world until the Europeans came.

A good dvd/book I recommend is Guns Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond.It has nothing to with Mormonism or religion but it will help you see how the New World really was and how it developed .

But I appreciate your suggestion as I do believe that you have experienced something albeit I think its in error .

Are you a convert ?

Zelph said...

EJ,

I agree with Jeremy that the internet will not destroy the LDS church. I don't believe that it will go anywhere anytime soon.

However, I do believe that the internet and the advances in communication will have a dynamic and dramatic impact overall. Technology and advances in communication has always had an impact on religion. It was the invention of the printing press that made it possible for common Catholic members to read the bible in their own language. This lead to the protestant movement.

Anonymous-I appreciate your post. However, I agree with Elder Joseph that what it comes down to for me is what is more reasonable. When one steps back and looks at all the evidence, a clear picture is drawn. There comes a point in which one must ask what is more reasonable.

Anonymous said...

elder joseph and zelph,

I'm not entirely sure why things are the way they are when it comes to the Lord giving experiences to some people that makes it impossible to disbelieve. Then there are others who are the exact opposite.

All that I can say is I know that what Joseph Smith claims is true. Yes, there are many problems that come with the package. But for me it is unimportant. I've read it all and understand the that "reasoning" alone will move many away from mormonism (or for that matter any religion). But there is a lot more than reasoning when it comes to things of the spirit. I think God designed it so that reasoning alone is insufficient to acquire the things of the spirit. It requires faith and the other gifts of the spirit that come with the reception of the Holy Ghost that make it possible to acquire a genuine testimony.

I wish you the best and hope that whatever road you take brings you happiness.

Anonymous said...

As the Bible says, "Many will be deceived"

CresceNet said...

Gostei muito desse post e seu blog é muito interessante, vou passar por aqui sempre =) Depois dá uma passada lá no meu site, que é sobre o CresceNet, espero que goste. O endereço dele é http://www.provedorcrescenet.com . Um abraço.

Elder Joseph said...

Anonymous you said

"All that I can say is I know that what Joseph Smith claims is true. Yes, there are many problems that come with the package. But for me it is unimportant."

One problem that comes with the package is that if you are female , you can be 'called' to marry and conceive with a priesthood holder ( usually prophet or apostle )that you have no natural affection for.Thats 'Rape' and its exactly what Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were doing with no conscience for anyone They were just sick self righteous megalomaniacs.To call these concerns unimportant shows how 'insensitive' you are and how you seemingly couldn't care less about the threatening callings of teen girls to marry old Self righteous Leaders.

Warren Jeffs is continuing this practice today.Why doin't you join this 'real' Mormon Sect.

You Said
"It requires faith and the other gifts of the spirit that come with the reception of the Holy Ghost that make it possible to acquire a genuine testimony."

For you to find this behaviour of Smith and Co as acceptable and commanded from God has more to do with Stupidity or Mental Illness rather than faith.Its the same blind faith that Moonies have , that Scientologists have , that JW's have.You are just a product of mind conditioning .I remember a JW once telling me that if he has been brainwashed then he's happy with that because its made him a better person.In Reality It made him into a liar for the Watchtower Society .The same with LDS missionaries and other prosletising members.

Some years later when he found out he had been lied to and deceived by the WatchTower Society his view changed dramatically and he QUIT ! In anger and shame .

You said "I wish you the best and hope that whatever road you take brings you happiness."

I don't believe you do at all. This is just Mormon style appeasement.I heard it all during my Investigation of the church.How 'wonderful' I am , How 'awsome' I am , How much 'Growth' I have made, How 'special' I am .Now I've quit My Bishop tried to walk straight past me in the Town Centre without saying hello ! Well I didn't let him !

"As the Bible says, "Many will be deceived""

Yes and Joseph Smith did a great Job.It also says
Matt 7:15
"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."

Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were two ravenous wolves masquerading as Christians.

Had you lived in their day then you would have faced the reality of giving up your wife to them in marriage ,and even your teen daughter,your property and all in the name of God and Salvation.

Will you be visiting the new $2billion shopping mall investment when its done .After all It belongs to Jesus .One wonders why he didn't start his land buying back then when he had the chance , it would have been worth a fortune now.LDS Co is really more of a business.

It's philanthropy and charitable work is more to do with PR than anything else.The Individual members contribute far more to society than the 'church' does as a corporation.

Anonymous said...

elder joseph,

You make many charges and claims.

I'd like you to produce testimony from the women that you claimed were "raped".

Comparing Jeffs with JS and BY is dishonest.

So I leave it to you to back up what you say with some facts. If what you say is true then there should be many women who have left testimony to support your assertions that they were raped by JS and BY.

Go to the following link to see the testimony of Mary Lightner
http://www.ldshistory.net/pc/merlbyu.htm

Anonymous said...

elder joseph,

Quoting your words:

You said "I wish you the best and hope that whatever road you take brings you happiness."

I don't believe you do at all. This is just Mormon style appeasement.
----------------------------------

I'm not into hate. I meant what I said, and I still do.

Elder Joseph said...

anonymous

you said

"I'd like you to produce testimony from the women that you claimed were "raped". 2

I have even heard of mormon women who are RAPED BY PRIESTHOOD HUSBANDS .

Your definition of RAPE being that someone signs some kind of sworn statement to the effect is twisted.

Having sex with an OLD mormon Leader because you have been 'called' into it in the name of God against your will is rape.

Would these girls have chosen these men if they had a choice ?

How naive you are.

Early LDS women were in a cult.When you are in a cult and your safety is at risk with no where to run and you believe that obeying a cult leader is from God or you will end up a Enuch in a lower kingdom then its difficult to object or protest.They tried and were clamped down on and threatened with Hell.It's in Journal Of Discourses.

Mormon leaders made it clear what would happen if anyone wanted to leave the church or disobay leaders and its not very nice.

As far as your "I wish you the best and hope that whatever road you take brings you happiness."is concerned ..

I do not believe you .I have two years experience of missionaries teling me how wonderful I am , how awsome I am , how talented I am , how much growth I've shown , how amazing I am .

Its all aload of mindless nonsense ! They have been brainwashed to say this without thinking about it because they are wanting BAPTISMS ,Figures , Numbers , Results , Sales.

Two years of this is enough to distort any young persons mind .

Many Mormons seem to have two faces. One for when they want something ( a convert)and another one for when they don't get what they wanted.

If you wish to show me that I am mistaken then email me.

I was deceived from the very first day I stepped into the Mormon Church . Had I known then I wouldn't have bothered .This is not a church.

Anonymous said...

elder joseph,

You can't back up what you say. If you can't produce proof of rape by JS and BY as you originally asserted, then how about bringing forth some sort of proof that young women were duped into having sex with older men --like Jeffs was found quilty of. I contend that JS and BY never did anything even remotely like what Jeffs did--as you asserted.

To my knowlege their were a few women in JS and BY day who spoke out against polygamy, but very few. I understand that most woman who lived the principle were thankful for the lives they had in polygamy.

I'll not comment further on your feelings about "two faced" Mormons, other than to say, I'm sure they exist, but for everyone like that there are 100 or 1000 who are sincere. Stereotyping all Mormons into the characterization you make is unfair, unwise, unkind, and untrue.

Let's see what you can come up with about abused women in JS and BY day. I'll look forward to your proof.

Jeremy said...

Quoting EJ "One wonders why he didn't start his land buying back then when he had the chance , it would have been worth a fortune now.LDS Co is really more of a business."

The church is a business, they incorporated under the name "Corporation of the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" When I worked in the "Meganacle" that's who my pay checks were from. They hold many properties and business... I'm sure you can find more about it using google if you are interested.

Just more trivia for ya. :)

Anonymous said...

First, I am a different "anonymous" than the LDS anonymous who has been posting here. I am the anonymous who posted (only once) on January 3rd. I wanted to make that clear because I do believe that the LDS members have been deceived by mormonism. The sad part is that many LDS are not interested in the truth. Jesus said "I am the way, the TRUTH and the light." It is the truth that will set them free from their bondage to mormonism. There is a ton of insightful information from a former mormon at www.bornagainmormon.com. Watch some of the tv shows - very interesting... It is not "anti-mormon; it is the TRUTH!

Elder Joseph said...

For Anonymous the LDS

Here is where on record Brigham Young Threatens HELL to the women resisting Plural Marriage.

A rapist can threaten with a knife ,can threaten with death or can threaten with Hell .Brigham chose Hell.

Now read carefully what he says and then try telling me that the women were grateful for this marriage system.

Brigham Young Journal Of Discourses VOL 17 page 159

Brother George A. Smith has been reading a little out of the revelation concerning celestial marriage, and I want to say to my sisters that if you lift you heels against this revelation, and say that you would obliterate it, and put it out of existence if you had the power to nullify and destroy it, I SAY THAT IF YOU IMBIBE THAT SPIRIT AND FEELING, YOU WILL GO TO HELL, JUST AS SURE AS YOU ARE LIVING WOMEN………………………….YOU SISTERS MAY SAY THAT PLURAL MARRIAGE IS VERY HARD FOR YOU TO BEAR. IT IS NO SUCH THING. A man or woman who would not spend his or her life in building up the kingdom of God on the earth, without a companion, and travel and preach, valise in hand, is worthy of God or his kingdom and they never will be crowned, they cannot be crowned; the sacrifice must be complete. If it is the duty of a husband to take a wife, take her. BUT IT IS NOT THE PRIVILEGE OF A WOMAN TO DICTATE THE HUSBAND, AND TELL WHO OR HOW MANY HE SHALL TAKE, OR WHAT HE SHALL DO WITH THEM WHEN HE GETS THEM, BUT IT IS THE DUTY OF THE WOMAN TO SUBMIT CHEERFULLY.

What happened to the D&C revelation which said a wife must give her permission for polygamy ?

It doesn't sound like it here does it?

He was threatening them with his power and authority( both of which he could only administer because the people were duped enough to believe him).
But there were threats too to those who disobeyed .George Q Cannon (LDS Apostle) spoke of Judas having his guts and bowels kicked out of him by the other 11 Apostles as a warning to anyone who was thinking of leaving the church or disobeying.It's in JOD's.

These are the teachings of the Presidents and Apostles of the LDS Church which we don't get to hear about as Investigators or even members.

Every women married in the Mormon church today has the LAW to thank for that.Had those early Mormon Leaders got there way then it would be a polygamous church even now.Look at Waren Jeffs and you have the actual church that Joseph and Brigham founded.

The LDS church today is a product being remolded by LAW and Social Pressure.Blacks were never meant to get the Priesthood either Until all the chosen whites had joined the church and been exhalted.

Words of McConkie
"There are statements in our literature by the early Brethren that we have interpreted to mean that THE NEGROES WOULD NOT RECEIVE THE PRIESTHOOD IN MORTALITY. I HAVE SAID THE SAME THINGS, and people write me letters and say, "You said such and such, and how is it now that we do such and such?" All I can say is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. FORGET EVERYTHING THAT I HAVE SAID, OR WHAT PRESIDENT BRIGHAM YOUNG OR GEORGE Q. CANNON OR WHOEVER HAS SAID in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world."

Even then Apostle Mark E Peterson said they will only get to CK as servants !

Well I for one have never believed and never will believe anything a Mormon Leader says.History shows they are not 'inspired' and neither are they geting 'revelation',never have and never will.

Anonymous said...

elder joseph you said:

"Thats 'Rape' and its exactly what Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were doing with no conscience for anyone They were just sick self righteous megalomaniacs."

You can only quote a few sermons out of context. Where is your evidence from women who were raped.

You're off subject because you can't find anything to support your original assertion that JS and BY were rapist of the same vein as Jeffs.

Where are the testimonies of women who claim they were raped

Many years have passed since the Manifesto was issued, surely if JS and BY were "rapist" there would be ample proof from the women who were raped. There would be journals and other evidence that would have come forth by now.

The reason you can't find testimonies from women who were raped is because there were none.

If you can't provide evidence of such evil then how come you're making assertions?

If you want to defame JS and BY then go right ahead. But please be courageous enough to do it with reason and thoughtfulness.

I'm not brothered by the kind of polygamy that JS and BY practiced. From what I know about it the practice was virtuous and for the times they lived in practical. I come from LDS lineage and my great grandfather had several wifes. No complaints from them. And that's the point. The people who lived it, including women if they were alive today would ask people like yourself, "what's your gripe, you don't know the first thing about it". Then they would add that Jeffs deserves what he got.

Like one congressman said in the 1800's, I've got more respect for a polygamist who "polygs" than I do for a monogamist who doesn't "monog".

tatabug said...

Thanks for that information from Elder Ballard, Zelph. I hadn't heard that. Maybe I should start my own blog.

EJ,

You really should stop with the rape accusations. It's a losing position. There is clear evidence that women within the Church had plenty of freedom to not engage in polygamy. No one forced them into it, and they were free to leave a polygamous marriage if they chose to, and some did. The 'Warren Jeffs society' is not an accurate representation of how plural marriage was handled.

Yes, there were warnings given to women of the consequences of not accepting it, but those warnings were also given to men. Is it wrong to warn people of the consequences of disobedience to God's commandments? Was Moses a money-digging liar for warning Pharoah of the consequences of not freeing the Hebrews? Was he wrong for killing people for committing what we might consider small infractions, but yet that was what the Law of Moses required? Was Paul wrong for warning about the wrath of God which would be incurred by those guilty of murder, homosexual practices, fornication, and other sins if they didn't repent? We may not like what the prophets have to say, but that doesn't make them wrong for saying what they say.

While I don't agree that the prophets of the LDS Church are not inspired, I will agree that they are not always inspired. They are not guided and commanded in all things. God gives us guidelines and expects us and them to use our own best judgement in all other things where there is no commandment. When a man is called to be a prophet, he doesn't all of a sudden become a perfect man, incapable of speaking any wrong. That is why we must pray for guidance when accepting any new revelation.

Elder Joseph said...

Anonymous

Yes you have respect for a man who threatens HELL to women who are reluctant to accept Polygamy.

Here is Brigham Young again incase you didn't read it the first time around..

Brigham Young Journal Of Discourses VOL 17 page 159

Brother George A. Smith has been reading a little out of the revelation concerning celestial marriage, and I want to say to my sisters that if you lift you heels against this revelation, and say that you would obliterate it, and put it out of existence if you had the power to nullify and destroy it, I SAY THAT IF YOU IMBIBE THAT SPIRIT AND FEELING, YOU WILL GO TO HELL, JUST AS SURE AS YOU ARE LIVING WOMEN………………………….YOU SISTERS MAY SAY THAT PLURAL MARRIAGE IS VERY HARD FOR YOU TO BEAR. IT IS NO SUCH THING. A man or woman who would not spend his or her life in building up the kingdom of God on the earth, without a companion, and travel and preach, valise in hand, is worthy of God or his kingdom and they never will be crowned, they cannot be crowned; the sacrifice must be complete. If it is the duty of a husband to take a wife, take her. BUT IT IS NOT THE PRIVILEGE OF A WOMAN TO DICTATE THE HUSBAND, AND TELL WHO OR HOW MANY HE SHALL TAKE, OR WHAT HE SHALL DO WITH THEM WHEN HE GETS THEM, BUT IT IS THE DUTY OF THE WOMAN TO SUBMIT CHEERFULLY.

Question For ANONYMOUS LDS
What happened to the D&C revelation which said a wife must give her permission for polygamy ? Why Did Brigham Young say its non of her Business ?

Why don't you answer this ?

and Here is the loving Prophet Brigham Young again

Brigham Young Journal Of Discourses Vol 16 p70 ,JUNE 28, 1873

But my heart has been set in me to do the will of God, to build up his kingdom on the earth, to establish Zion and its laws, and to save the people; and I can say truly and honestly that the thought never came into my mind, in all my labors, what my reward will be, or whether my crown would be large or small, or any crown at all, a small possession, a large possession, or no possession. I DO NOT KNOW THAT I SHALL HAVE A WIFE OR CHILD IN THE RESURRECTION. I HAVE NEVER HAD ANY THOUGHTS OR REFLECTIONS UPON THIS, OR CARED THE FIRST THING ABOUT IT. All that I have had in my mind has been that it was my duty to do the will of God, and to labor to establish his kingdom on the earth.

and Your Quote
"Like one congressman said in the 1800's, I've got more respect for a polygamist who "polygs" than I do for a monogamist who doesn't "monog"."

Did he know Joseph Smith married other mens wives ?
Did he know Brigham Young married teens in his very old age?
Did he know Investigators and church members were being lied to by the Mormon Heirarchy ?
Did he know ordinary members were threatened if they decided to quit the church ?
Did he know ordinary mermbers could loose their wives to a more faithfull Priesthood member if he lagged behind in obedience ?

I have more respect for people who had the courage to leave the LDS church and expose Joseph Smith's secret Polygamy and Lying aLL HIS LIFE ABOUT IT .

What happened to Articles of Faith about being Honest etc and following the Laws Of The Land ?

Elder Joseph said...

Tata

from your Prophet Brigham Young about 'Fanatics' !

JD 13:271, Brigham Young, July 24, 1870
"I WILL TELL YOU WHO THE REAL FANATICS ARE: THEY ARE THEY WHO ADOPT FALSE PRINCIPLES AND IDEAS AS FACTS, AND TRY TO ESTABLISH A SUPERSTRUCTURE UPON A FALSE FOUNDATION. THEY ARE THE FANATICS; AND HOWEVER ARDENT AND ZEALOUS THEY MAY BE, THEY MAY REASON OR ARGUE ON FALSE PREMISES TILL DOOMSDAY, AND THE RESULT WILL BE FALSE. If our religion is of this character we want to know it; we would like to find a philosopher who can prove it to us. We are called ignorant; so we are: but what of it? Are not all ignorant? I rather think so. Who can tell us of the
inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon? When we view its face we may see what is termed "the man in the moon," and what some philosophers declare are the shadows of mountains. But these sayings are very vague, and amount to nothing; AND WHEN YOU INQUIRE ABOUT THE INHABITANTS OF THAT SPHERE YOU FIND THAT THE MOST LEARNED ARE AS IGNORANT IN REGARD TO THEM as the most ignorant of their fellows. SO IT IS WITH REGARD TO THE INHABITANTS OF THE SUN. DO YOU THINK IT IS INHABITED? I RATHER THINK IT IS. DO YOU THINK
THERE IS ANY LIFE THERE? NO QUESTION OF IT; IT WAS NOT MADE IN VAIN. "

and did you know what happened to Judas ?

JD 6:125 − p.126, Heber C. Kimball, December 13, 1857
"It is said in the Bible that his bowels gushed out; but they actually kicked him until his bowelscame out..... I know the day is right at hand when men will forfeit their Priesthood and turn against us and against the covenants they have made, and they will be destroyed as Judas was."

So don't try leaving the church and opposing it in other words.

tatabug said...

EJ,

I don't see how you addressed any of my points, but as usual just went off on your own tangent. A little focus please.

I'm not sure I see your point with the first quote, unless you were just attempting to shock me with BY teaching that the moon and the sun are inhabited. If so, sorry to disappoint, but I was already aware of it.

As far as the second quote, I don't know of anyone who has left the Church who's been kicked until their bowels spilled out. Maybe some annoying phone calls or visits, but that's about it.

I think Heber's point was metaphorical and not literal. If one maintains that a belief in Jesus Christ is essential for salvation, then one must realize that there are consequences for rejecting Him. To reject Christ's Church is to reject Christ himself and one cannot expect eternal salvation on that basis. All who do not receive eternal salvation will suffer to some degree or another. You may see that as threatening, but for God to not lay out the consequences of disobedience would be unfair. I don't begrudge any religion the ability to try to inform its members of the consequences of disobedience to the commandments and adherence to the religion's tenets. No one is forced to believe anything, and no one is forced to accept Mormonism, but if you do, there are responsibilities involved if you want to be a faithful member.

So, EJ, what would you suggest? Give me your idea of what the perfect religion should be, since you seem to have all the answers.

Wait, let me take a crack at it. First, there won't be any commandments, because disobedience to them would require consequences, and then that would require spelling them out in sometimes harsh and uncomfortable terms. That would put a lot of stress and undue pressure on people, and we don't want that, so we will just have no expectations whatsoever. People can come and go and do as they please. As has been said so profoundly before, "Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die." Our motto will be, "Hakuna Matata" (no worries).

Secondly, we won't proclaim that our Church is true, because if we do, that would mean that all other Churches by necessity would be wrong, because there can be only one truth. Or we must assume that every Church has some of the truth, but none have all the truth. We will just say that to the best of our knowledge, what we believe is true along with the disclaimer that some of the things we believe may or may not be true. Our way may or may not be the correct way to get to heaven. We make no guarantees.

Third, we will not claim any divine authority, because that would possibly make our Church true, and then that would lead into issues discussed in the second point. Our Church will stand on its own authority. It will not be led by God in any way, shape, or form, for to make such a claim would be too arrogant.

Fourth, we will accept no money or any other sort of sacrifice by members. We will not engage in any humanitarian efforts, since that would require money or other forms of donations. We will not feed or clothe the poor :( Missionary efforts will also be very limited. We will meet wherever we can find a place that's free. If a meeting place cannot be found, we'll meet in someone's house, or outside if necessary, provided the weather's nice. As a result of the no money policy, everyone will be required to furnish their own teaching materials and supplies. (But since we really have no expectations, that shouldn't prove to be a problem since there won't be much to teach. After all, Christ's teachings were all about meeting His expectations.)

Which brings us to our fifth point, we will not be a Christian Church.

On second thought, why don't we just start up a social club?

tiredmormon said...

So now that Ballard wants people to blog, you are going to stop blogging? Are you acting out against the mormon hierarchy or are you just being lazy?

NM said...

It's good to blog. Blogging is a good way to gather and consolidate personal thoughts, opinions etc.

I think that the collective gathering of thoughts is a good way to determine whether a philosophical thought (usually the current fad) is worth keeping. If it isn't worth keeping, it's interesting to see how people then amend their perspectives and inevitably, their lifestyles =)

Zelph said...

Tiredmormon- I have always been quite the contrarian. ;) However, I think I agree with NM that blogging is good and it has helped me organize my thoughts. I have taken a break from blogging as I am now focusing my time on other subjects outside of the LDS church and I am in the process of exiting the Mormon community.

NM said...

Zelph,

Although for the majority of time I have 'hovered', I have enjoyed reading through your posts and also enjoyed reading through the comments that others have made.

I feel ambivalent toward your last response, "...I am now focusing my time on other subjects outside of the LDS church and I am in the process of exiting the Mormon community." I both love and hate what you are about to do.

And I think the reason as to why I am ambivalent is that in the same way that you have decided to move away from the Mormon community - I hope you do not abandon the sincerity in which you seek after 'truth'. I can in no way fully empathise with what you are going through - having never been a LDS; but I can sympathise in the way that I also had to walk away from evangelical 'christianity'. I remember the first few weeks of walking away from it thinking to myself, what on earth did I get myself into?!

From the subject of anthropology alone, philosophers like Nietzche and all other existential philosophers alluded to the notion that: if there is no God, all things are permissible. I don't know about you but just by simple observation of society - not everything is permissible. So, the question is: who says what is morally right and what is morally wrong?

So, for now - and please know that I say this to you in all humility: do not abandon your pursuit of 'truth'.

NM said...

Oh, and another thing. I saw this guy from over at Mormanity - someone who I have come to really enjoy reading his own thoughts. I especially liked his post with regard to his paradigm shift from having read a book entitled 'Rough Stone Rolling'. What do you make of it?

James@storybookglen.com said...

Hey Folks,

I'm a memember/ Ex member of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saint's! Ex Memeber because the church left me and became a pitiful wimp of a church named Community of Christ! I still claim RLDS membership!

You'all need to study.... You're all so sure the Utah Mormon is/was the one true church, you've forgotten there are 264 other legally recognized churches in this world who believe and teach the Book of Mormon!

Now I'm sure by now you think I'm crazy, concieted, a real wacko! So while I'm batting a 0 average let me tell you all something else quite surprising! I'm a priest!

No my being a priest is not surprising, but I can tell you for a fact most of you never heard of the RLDS church before! I can say that because I've been to LDS stakes, I've had young elders come up to me wanting to see my scriptures.

All of these young men didn't even know the RLDS church ever existed, or that there was and is still printed today an orignal 1830 Book of Mormon free of the changes that both LDS and RLDS churchs made to suite each churches devices...

I can say for a fact most you'all are not truly educated in church history! Cause if you was, ( I'm a hillbilly, I can say was) you'd know that Joseph Smith didn't teach, preach, or practise polygamy! Nor did He teach Adam God theory, or any of that other BS the early and late LDS hierarchy say's he taught!!!

As matter of fact there are court records to prove what I say is true, and your own Journal of discourses say so as well!

So while I don't want to appear a jerk, I must ask you all to quite your gossiping and slander of a man and prophet who'm your own bibles speaks of, who's long been dead because a certain Briggham Young Arranged for his death....

And while your LDS history teaches Emma Smith left the Church, She in fact stayed with the origanal church Brigham Young saught to destroy till the day she died.

You see, Emma Smith never left the LDS church as I've seen it written in your records and LDS websites. NO! The LDS church left Emma Smith behind in Missouri.... She stayed with the origanal church who later reorganized as the RLDS church....

A Footnote. If you'll read about Emma Smith you'll find she was left penniless by Brigham Young. She would not follow him to salt lake. So the land Joseph Smith's family had purchased and put into the churches cares was never allowed to go to Emma so she could liquidate it and supported her family as a widow.....

Ask yourselves this. If the Utah church is the origanal church, how come the RLDS was given all the copy right's to the Inspired version of the bible, ( Joseph Smith's version) as well as Book of Mormon and Doctrine an Covenants....

While this post is liable to get me banned from this blogg for treating you all like you're stupid, I've yet to see anybody go hey what about those other LDS alien people who're based in Missouri those people and church that is spoken of by the Prophet Jerimiah chapter 17 verse 5-8.

Utah is a salt land. And the RLDS is based right beside a River, even on River Street!

But don't take my word for it...
Read your scriptures with all your mights, pray with open hearts, ask for the Holy Spirit to give you the discernment to know wisdom!

Sincerely

James Brian Marshall

tatabug said...

James,

Plenty of us here treat each other like the opposing viewpoint is stupid. You're comment is rather tame, so I doubt Zelph will ban you.

I don't know about most people, but I am inclined to believe that members of the LDS Church who've never heard of the RLDS/Community of Christ, must be living under a rock. I've known about the RLDS for as long as I can remember. As a teenager I even knew a girl who was a convert to LDS from RLDS, and I even remember when the church went from being referred to as RLDS to Community of Christ.

Perhaps you've just recently encountered this blog, because if you frequented it, you would know that most of the people here certainly don't believe as you said that "the Utah Mormon is/was the one true church." I happen to believe this, but most here don't.

Also, if you had frequented this blog, you would know that the numerous different denominations (including RLDS) which stemmed from the original Church founded by Joseph Smith, have been mentioned here in previous posts. I am not up to speed on the doctrines and beliefs of these denominations, but others here are more informed about them than I am.

You said, "Ex Memeber because the church left me and became a pitiful wimp of a church named Community of Christ!" Maybe you should take that as a sign that it isn't the true church you think/thought it was.

Anywho, since I don't know much about the RLDS church, I'm curious to know how you explain D&C 132 which gives revelation regarding the practice of polygamy.

Also, I don't see how owning the rights to the JST makes the RLDS true. If Emma was in fact in possession of the original, and she elected to remain behind and support her son as Joseph's successor, well then what choice was there regarding copyright? I guess the church could have taken it by force, but honestly, what legal right did the church have to it? However, I am admittedly not very informed in this matter. I also have never heard that the rights to the D&C and the Book of Mormon were owned by the RLDS church. If this is so, how is the church able to publish them? I know they don't publish the full JST, but they do publish the D&C and the Book of Mormon.

Your attribution of the words of Jeremiah referring to the LDS church in the "salt land" and the RLDS church as the tree by the river is very interesting, but I take it as a metaphor rather than a prophecy about the church. It is referring to a man who puts his trust in the arm of flesh rather than God and illustrates how empty he is as a result. Then it talks about a man who trusts in the Lord and how abundantly he is added upon because of it. The use of the word "as" IMO is key to determining the metaphorical nature of the scriptures you cite.

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Bishop Rick said...

James,

Your post is humorous. I have to assume you are making a joke as you even contradict yourself. You claim the RLDS is the only true church yet admit that it no longer exists...hmmm. You also claim the posters on this blog are uneducated. Wrong again. Most of the posters here, on both sides of the topic, are very well researched.

Good one though.

I do wish Zelph would commit to maybe one post per month though. At least one post per quarter.

James Brian Marshall said...

Hmmmmm.......Ouch! I guess I got what I desearve!

Yes I may sound concieted, humorous and unresearched, ignorant,a blowhard or worse. But I'm not.

I'm a self admitted hypocryt and a sinner. Yes for those who cared to comment I'm a contradiction. But not as you've so quickly tried to suggest.

Quite honestly I get frusterated with people, who think the LDS church is the one true church. It was a split of 10,000 saint's who followed Brigham Young to Salt Lake City. Fullfilling the below physical description in

Jeremiah 17:5-8

5Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

6For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.

7Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is.

8For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.

While I admit not knowing everything, especially about this website, I'm new to it. I do know my scripture.

I can garantee you there is no section 132 in RLDS D&C with Joseph Smith's Revelation about polygamy.

I will also ask you to read throughly what's written below. It's quite revieling, and it's say's someones telling a lie. I'll let you be the judge.

If you still doubt me go to this link I've posted.

http://www.centerplace.org/hs/dc/about.htm


Revelation given through Joseph Smith, Jr., and addressed to the elders of the church. It was given February 9, 1831, in the presence of twelve elders who had assembled at Kirtland, Ohio, in harmony with instruction given them in an earlier revelation (D. and C. 41:1b). In the 1835 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants this revelation appears as Section 13, and is headed "Laws of the Church."


Sec 42:5a] And again, the elders, priests, and teachers of this church shall teach the principles of my gospel which are in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, in which is the fullness of the gospel;

Sec 42:7d] Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shall cleave unto her and none else; and he that looketh upon a woman to lust after her, shall deny the faith, and shall not have the Spirit; and if he repents not, he shall be cast out.

[Sec 42:7e] Thou shalt not commit adultery; and he that committeth adultery and repenteth not, shall be cast out; but he that hath committed adultery and repents with all his heart, and forsaketh it, and doeth it no more, thou shalt forgive; but if he doeth it again, he shall not be forgiven, but shall be cast out.


I'm sorry this is so long, but read please read further. In a few more versus you will see polygamy condemned by the early church many years before Joseph Smith's death.


[Sec 42:20a] Behold, verily I say unto you, that whatever persons among you having put away their companions for the cause of fornication, or in other words, if they shall testify before you in all lowliness of heart that this is the case, ye shall not cast them out from among you;

[Sec 42:20b] but if ye shall find that any persons have left their companions for the sake of adultery, and they themselves are the offenders, and their companions are living, they shall be cast out from among you.

[Sec 42:20c] And again I say unto you, that ye shall be watchful and careful, with all inquiry, that ye receive none such among you if they are married, and if they are not married, they shall repent of all their sins, or ye shall not receive them.

[Sec 42:21a] And again, every person who belongeth to this church of Christ shall observe to keep all the commandments and covenants of the church.


Revelation given through Joseph Smith, Jr., March 1831, at Kirtland, Ohio, addressed to Sidney Rigdon, Parley P. Pratt, and Lemon Copley. These elders were sent on a mission to the Shakers. Copley had been a member of the Society of Shakers but had recently joined the church. The revelation sets forth the major teachings of the Restoration wherein they differ from those of the Shakers.



Sec 49:3a] And again, I say unto you, that whoso forbiddeth to marry, is not ordained of God, for marriage is ordained of God unto man;

[Sec 49:3b] wherefore it is lawful that he should have one wife, and they twain shall be one flesh, and all this that the earth might answer the end of its creation;

[Sec 49:3c] and that it might be filled with the measure of man, according to his creation before the world was made.

Now perhaps RLDS church is lying. But if so, why would the origanl LDS church as a whole body condemn the practise of polygamy August 17 1835?


Revelation given through Joseph Smith, Jr., March 1831, at Kirtland, Ohio, addressed to Sidney Rigdon, Parley P. Pratt, and Lemon Copley. These elders were sent on a mission to the Shakers. Copley had been a member of the Society of Shakers but had recently joined the church. The revelation sets forth the major teachings of the Restoration wherein they differ from those of the Shakers.


[Sec 111:4b] Inasmuch as this Church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife; and one woman but one husband, except in case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again.

[Sec 111:4c] It is not right to persuade a woman to be baptized contrary to the will of her husband, neither is it lawful to influence her to leave her husband.

[Sec 111:4d] All children are bound by law to obey their parents; and to influence them to embrace any religious faith, or be baptized, or leave their parents without their consent, is unlawful and unjust.

[Sec 111:4e] We believe that all persons* who exercise control over their fellow--beings, and prevent them from embracing the truth, will have to answer for that sin.

* (Note: The 1835 D&C included an addendum with a correction to verse 4e: "We believe that husbands, parents and masters who exercise control over their wives, children and servants, and prevent them from embracing the truth, will have to answer for that sin." This is also found in Messenger & Advocate, 1:163, August 1835.)


If Joseph Smith truly did give revelation that polygamy was desired of by God, then why does
the D&C, The bible, and Book of Mormon forbid it?

Look folks I may be a hick, I may not know so much, but I know Jesus Christ does not lie.

Book of Mormon Jacob chapter 2 roundly condemns polygamy.
Read the whole chapter. It's impressive.

Again if you doubt my claim, type the link and read for yourself.

http://www.centerplace.org/hs/bofm/default.htm

Book of Mormon Jacob Chapter 2:29-43 1908 RLDS Book of Mormon.

29 And now I make an end of speaking unto you concerning this pride.

30 And were it not that I must speak unto you concerning a grosser crime, my heart would rejoice exceedingly, because of you.

31 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes.

32 For behold, thus saith the Lord, This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures: for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.

33 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives, and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord,

34 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.

35 Wherefore, I, the Lord God, will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.

36 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none: For I, the Lord God, delighteth in the chastity of women.

37 And whoredoms are an abomination before me: thus saith the Lord of hosts.

38 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.

39 For if I will, saith the Lord of hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people: otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.

40 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem; yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.

41 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me, against the men of my people, saith the Lord of hosts;

42 For they shall not lead away captive, the daughters of my people, because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction;

43 For they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of hosts.

Christ said " by their works ye shall know them"!

Doubt you the words of Jesus Christ?

I've shown you revalation from Joseph Smith condemning adutery, polgamy, pleading with men to ahere to one wife, and wives to one husband?

If the Book of Mormon be true, the the work Joseph Smith did for the Lord God forebids Polygamy. If Joseph Smith and not God is the author, them Smith obviously believed one wife was a good thing, and give a very plausable argument.

While I don't have my all my resources with me, I'm in Texas sorta on vacation/work.

Brigham Young was a bad man. You folk don't know how bad. In time, when I'm living back home in Arkansas and have full access to my Libray, I will further prove my arguements. In ending I will let you read some quotes of his family.

"Joseph Smith was the greatest victim of fraud and conspiracy of the last 500 years. Nothing like it in recorded history. He was simply lied about when something had to be done to justify ... Utah Mormon polygamy."

—President Israel A. Smith, grandson of Joseph the Martyr (Letter to Pamela Price,
September 17, 1956)


"I had not been married scarcely five minutes, and made one proclamation of the Gospel, before it was reported that I had seven wives.... I am innocent of all these charges.... What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers."

—Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 6:410–411


As you can see and confirm with research, Joseph Smith at the time of his marraige faught Polygamy from the time he first married Emma.

Sincerely
James Brian Marshall

James Brian Marshall said...

Friends,

Before Someone starts telling me I've not given conclusive evidence, I wanted to say it first.

In time I will show you the rest of the story I know. And for those who think I'm a walking contradiction, a contradiction I'll show you all. It' won't be just myself.

I will double and triple support what I say with evidence of another history that has been withheld from the Salt Lake church by intention.

Sincerely

James Brian Marshall

PS.

Sorry for the editorial problems. Only one way I can get better at that and that's the hard way.