Thursday, June 28, 2007

Lehi's Dream-Did Joseph Smith compose it?

Boyd K. Packer, who was acting president of the quorum of the 12 apostles at the time, gave a speech at a BYU Devotional on January 16, 2007. In his speech, he talks about how the Book of Mormon is the cornerstone to his testimony. He goes on to talk about Lehi's dream, as found in the Book of Mormon and how the symbolism of his dream can be applied to our lives. At one point, he asks a very important question regarding the origin of Lehi's dream. What I discovered shocked me to the very core.

Lehi's Dream In The Book Of Mormon
For those that are unfamiliar with Lehi's dream, it is a story of a prophet named Lehi that receives a vision in the form of a dream, during which time he was living in the desert and the year was around 600 B.C.. In 1 Nephi chapter 8, we read about Lehi's vision. In this chapter, Nephi describes his father's dream:
I saw a man, and he was dressed in a white robe; and he came and stood before me...I beheld a large and spacious field...[I] beheld a tree... I did go forth and partake of the fruit thereof...and I beheld that the fruit thereof was white, to exceed all the whiteness that I had ever seen...And as I partook of the fruit thereof it filled my soul with exceedingly great joy; wherefore, I began to be desirous that my family should partake of it also...I beheld a river of water; and it ran along, and it was near the tree of which I was partaking the fruit...I beheld your mother Sariah, and Sam, and Nephi...I did say unto them with a loud voice that they should come unto me, and partake of the fruit, which was desirable above all other fruit...And I also beheld a strait and narrow path, which came along by the rod of iron, even to the tree by which I stood...on the other side of the river of water, a great and spacious building; and it stood as it were in the air, high above the earth And it was filled with people... and they were in the attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers towards those who had come at and were partaking of the fruit.
Later in the Book of Mormon, Nephi records a similar vision in 1 Nephi 11, this time Nephi himself sees the vision of the tree of life. Eager to ask the spirit what the meaning of the vision is, Nephi is told that the field represents the world. The tree of life represents the love of God. The Iron rod represents the word of God, that leads up to the tree of life. We also learn that the great and spacious building represents the pride and materialism of the world.

Did Joseph Smith Compose Lehi's Dream?

In his recent speech, Boyd K. Packer goes on to talk about how we can apply the symbolism of Lehi's dream to our lives. Packer also brings up an interesting question in the middle of his speech, where he says: "Who wrote this incredible vision? There is nothing like it in the Bible. Did Joseph Smith compose it? Did he write the Book of Mormon? That is harder to believe than the account of angels and golden plates. Joseph Smith was only 24 years old when the Book of Mormon was published."

Joseph Smith Sr. Had A Similar Dream

Interestingly enough, Joseph Smith Jr.'s father, Joseph Smith Sr. had a very similar dream when Joseph Smith Jr. was about 5 years old. Lucy Mack Smith, Joseph Smith Sr.'s wife recounted her husbands experience in her narrative Joseph Smith, The Prophet And His Progenitors For Many Generations:
In 1811, we moved from Royalton, Vermont, to the town of Lebanon, New Hampshire. Soon after arriving here, my husband received...[a] vision, which I will relate:

"...I (Referring to Joseph Smith Sr.)was traveling in an open, desolate field, which appeared to be very barren...My guide, who was by my side, as before, said, 'This is the desolate world... Traveling a short distance farther, I came to a narrow path. This path I entered, and, when I had traveled a little way in it, I beheld a beautiful stream of water, which ran from the east to the west....I could see a rope running along the bank of it.

...beyond me was a low, but very pleasant valley, in which stood a tree such as I had never seen bore a kind of fruit, in shape much like a chestnut bur, and as white as snow, or, if possible whiter...I drew near and began to eat of it, and I found it delicious beyond description. As I was eating, I said in my heart, 'I can not eat this alone, I must bring my wife and children, that they may partake with me'.

...I beheld a spacious building standing opposite the valley which we were in, and it appeared to reach to the very heavens. It was full of doors and windows, and they were filled with people, who were very finely dressed. When these people observed us in the low valley, under the tree, they pointed the finger of scorn at us, and treated us with all manner of disrespect and contempt. But their contumely we utterly disregarded.

I presently turned to my guide, and inquired of him the meaning of the fruit that was so delicious. He told me it was the pure love of God...He then commanded me to go and bring the rest of my children...Upon raising my eyes, I saw two small children, standing some distance off. I immediately went to them, and brought them to the tree; upon which they commenced eating with the rest, and we all rejoiced together.

...I asked my guide what was the meaning of the spacious building which I saw. He replied, 'It is Babylon, it is Babylon, and it must fall. The people in the doors and windows are the inhabitants thereof, who scorn and despise the Saints of God because of their humility.' I soon awoke, clapping my hands together for joy."
It appears that Joseph Smith Jr. was not the author of Lehi's dream, on that point, I can agree with Packer. If Lucy Mack Smith's story is true, It is reasonable to conclude that Joseph Jr. simply cribbed Lehi's dream from his own father's story.

Apologetic Responses

One apologetic response I have heard is that it was simply miraculous that Joseph Smith Sr. received the same dream as Lehi in preparation for the Book of Mormon. However, if they received the same dream, why are there subtle but key differences? For example, in Joseph Smith Sr.'s dream, instead of a rod of iron, it is a rope. The rod of iron is an important symbol of the firmness of God's word. If Joseph Smith received the same vision, why would God leave that part out of it?

The only other apologetic response I have heard contradicts the first apologetic response. I have heard the argument that since Lucy Mack Smith recounted her husbands dream after publication of the Book of Mormon, her recollection of her husband's dream was influenced by the text in the Book of Mormon. However, that still demonstrates that he did have a dream that was similar to Lehi's dream. So, Joseph Smith Jr. could have based Lehi's dream on Joseph Smith Sr.'s dream, then Lucy Mack Smith's recollection could have been influenced by the Book of Mormon text. Not only that, but if Joseph Smith Sr. had a dream that was similar to Lehi's in preparation for the Book of Mormon, why would it be similar, yet different? Wouldn't God give him the same exact dream as Lehi in preparation of the Book of Mormon?

Either way, Joseph Smith Sr. did receive a dream similar to Lehi's in the Book of Mormon in 1811, 19 years before publication of the Book of Mormon. It is possible and likely that Joseph Smith Jr.'s father recounted his dream to him.

Skeptical Mormon


Anonymous said...

When I first heard about Joseph Smith Sr's dream I was blown away too! For more info on this topic I suggest Grant Palmer's book "An Insider's View on Mormon Origins".

Elder Joseph said...

I first came across this comparison in Grant Palmers book also and it opened my eyes bigtime !

I've since found the Lucy Mack Smith book on the Internet and the dream is there !

I've heard the apologetics answer that Lucy Mack made an error and was confused in her old age ?

The apolgetics guys have to spin it in some way .If that was the only problem in the Book Of Mormon it would be considered . However if you accumulate every problem in the Book Of Mormon , you soon realise that the whole book is one BIG problem from start to finish! lol

The introduction is false " Written to the Lamenites who are a remnant to the house of Israel " lol and every page after it !

In fact I found a truth in the book Of Mormon !

Mormon 8:32 Yea it shall come in that day when there shall be churches built up that shall say : Come unto me , and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins !

Pay Tithe .... tithe ... blessings of tithe , you can't afford not to pay tithe .... tithe and get your recommend .. tithe payers shall not be burned .... tithe is a privilage ... you are better of financially paying tithe ...don't miss out on the blessings of tithe ... tithe is an act of faith ..... we don't need your tithe ,its for your benefit ....

No Tithe .. No entry to Celestial and God ! Prohecy fulfilled Mormon 8:32

Now don't get me wrong .I think if you are believer its a great way to fund the church but its a sacrifice and no one is better off finacially as a result , quite the opposite ...

I had only been to church about 3 times and I was being virtually man handled for tithe ! lol

Ps I do pay Humitarian aid and fasts .... there are some good sides to the church even though its Bogus .. But there are many organisations doing these kinds of things and they don't claim to be Gods Only True Church and that we must worship its Leaders ...

Zelph said...

Thank you for your reference to that book. I have heard all about it, but have not read it yet.

It is funny how quick LDS apologists discredit statements or stories of pro-LDS people when problems arise.

You are also correct, it isn't just that problem. If there was just one or two problems with the Book of Mormon, that would be one thing. However, it is when you put it all together you realize there is no way the BoM is what it claims to be. There is no evidence that supports it. Not one artifact. The plants, animals, wepons, metal, buildings, fortified cities, chariots, geography and DNA all discredit the historicity of the BoM. We don't have the original plates to look at and examine, then, we look at the BoA where we DO have the original document, and it is just a common funerary text for an egyptian mummy. Couple that with obvious word-for-word copies of chunks of the King James bible, the same outline as View of the Hebrews, Solomon Spauldings manuscripts, stories he heard as a child from his dad, then you add place-names and geographic descriptions from around Joseph Smith's area mixed with sentiments from the war of 1812 and you have the Book of Mormon.

N8Ma said...


Wow I might even know you personally depending on where you live.

You obviously do not honestly wish all of this could be disproven, because you celebrate and publish your doubts through this website. Your claims to being open-minded and truth-seeking are actually self-serving. Face the fact that you have lost your religion, and leave it.

Ask for your records to be removed from the church, and to completely and totally sever your ties to it. Remove your garments, and acknowledge your covenants to be null and void.

People do it all the time. Reveal your true name and live with the decisions you've made in your life.

Right now you are a coward.

Zelph said...


Thank you for addressing this issue. First, I know I don't know you personally, and just to give you a hint, I live west of the rockies.

My understanding has evolved since the beginning of my blog. I have updated my current position and my status as a church member.

Thank you for your comments and I hope you visit frequently as I welcome all different opinions, even if I don't agree.

Elder Joseph said...


As you now know .. Joseph Smiths idea of revelation is just to 'take' from what what was around him and he did it so blatantly and arrogantly as well ..

Its the same with the word of wisdom .Joseph Smith just got it from The Temperence Movement and food reforms at the time , Talk of abstaining from Alcohol/Tobacco and things was already floureshing at that time .

I was reading this in Richard Lyman Bushmans Book ( No 1 Authority on the Prophet at BYU ) about the life of the prophet . In 1835 a lecturer called Sylvester Graham lectured in New York and Philadelphia against , Tobacco, tea , Coffee and alcohol and recommended a diet on whole grains , it was popular and Joseph just linked his revelation version to these reforms ..... so simple really .

Similarly his Temple endowment revelation seem to come after he learnt it with the Masons ! lol

Its absolutely crazy ! and as you know you can find this pattern throughout all his writings !

Many of his Book Of Mormon Characters like Korihor and Zeezrom I have experienced myself as have most people ! Some of his other characters he stole from the bible ...

I noticed alot of this when I read The Book Of Mormon as I was familiar with the bible narratives already . Had I read the Book Of Mormon with no prior Biblical Knowledge then I may have been duped !

Russell said...

As an educated and orthodox Latter Day Saint myself, I can tell you with certainty that not only is this information not new to me, but I could probably one-up you on supposed co-opting accusations against Joseph. But yet I do not. Why?

Because 1) if Joseph were merely borrowing from everyone, why was everyone so fool as to believe Joseph was a prophet? They had an even clearer view of the social milieu in which they lived and yet numerous members stayed with him while we, distant onlookers, tend to reject him.

2) While the actual vision of the tree of life is indeed similar to Joseph Sr.'s vision, it is also similar to themese throughout ancient canon, esp. the Bible in Genesis and Revelation. Our record of Joseph's dream is scanty indeed; we have no evidence of what he told his children about the visions. It would not surprise me if he told Joseph but SIMPLY because there were some limited similarites (quite limited, mostly the elements of a barren wasteland and a tree of life, only a couple of the myriad features in the dream) does not give us a direct line of literary lineage.

I have found that Mormonism is the great co-opter, almost by its nature. Like Chesterton has noted, all the great truths, if left to their own, would probably go limp or wild. The gospel tames these truths, ties them together into an organic whole, and helps them counterbalance and check one another. This is the beauty of the gospel--not only its content but in its frame.

Joseph said...

Joseph Smith Jr. was a man of his time… a 19th century New-Englander surrounded and undoubtedly influenced by the trends and ideas of his day. He was born into a believing Christian family… both of his grandfathers had seen visions… his father saw visions… Joseph was visited. Many, if not all of the revelations which Joseph received were simply answers to questions he had… questions that were drawn up in his mind as he listened, observed, and experienced what was going on around him. Joseph’s first visitation is no exception… Reverend George Lang was preaching a sermon on how to find out the truth. In it Reverend Lang quoted James 1:5, “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.” Perhaps in response to hearing Reverend Lang’s sermon Joseph decided to make his attempt?

Our Father in heaven, who loves us with all his heart, uses what we have around us to teach us and inspire us to ask the right questions. Interestingly enough, reading Lehi’s vision in the Book of Mormon did not stir up suspicion in the Smith home, but was rather a personal confirmation that the work was true and Joseph Smith Jr. and his family had been prepared to both and accept and move the great work along.

I know that Joseph Smith was and is a prophet called of God in these last days. I know that the Book of Mormon is an authentic and true testament of the living Christ, of His work and His mission to bring all men and women unto him. If any of you lack wisdom, may I suggest a well-tested and proven method? Go to the Lord in sincere and humble prayer… Ask Him if the Book of Mormon is not true. I promise as the ancient prophet Moroni did, “If you will ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.” (Moroni 10:4)

Anonymous said...

To Joseph,

I appreciate your counsel but I have to tell you that it doesn't work for everyone. That is actually where I ran in to problems. I had read and re-read and re-read the Book of Mormon my whole life and was completely convinced the church could do no wrong. I served in prominent callings (for women at least) and I did so unabashadely. My problem came when I decided I would do as the Book asked and finally pray about it's truthfulness. I never doubted what answer I would receive. So I studied wholeheartedly and prayed and studied until I finished the Book of Mormon again. And I prayed. What shocked me was I didn't receive the answer I was expecting but a "stupor of thought" as we like to call it. So I continued praying (of course!) and I have never been able to have that confirmation. So while I appreciate the advice and suggestion, I think you need to realize that it doesn't happen to everyone, even "Molly Mormons" who thought they were doing everything right!

Anonymous said...

No, it was NOT. Do you not know what the spirit feels like? What about the REST of the Book of Mormon. Was that made up? No it was not. Everyone gets so darn caught up in little things and doubts. Reading things on the internet doesn't make them true. Confirmation from the spirit that something is true makes it true. So what is it that the Book of Mormon teaches and reiterates over and over?

REPENTANCE through our Lord and Savior JESUS CHRIST. Have you all felt that redeeming love? Have you felt the burdens of sin leave your shoulders? If you haven't you should. Too often when someone is doing something they shouldn't, all of a sudden it isn't them that is doing something wrong, its the leaders that are wrong. Maybe Joseph Smith isn't a prophet... When doubts creep up we often forget the core message of the church. When we doubt, we drive oureselves away. Remember the most commonly quoted scripture Moroni 10:3-5. Theres a part thats key.

"...and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost

And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."

3 ingredients, sincerity, real intent, faith in Christ. real intent means you will act on the answer, sincerity means no doubt, you truly want to know. The most important ingredient, Faith in Christ, check it and see if you have it.

Too often I see people say they have open minds (I served an LDS mission too.) but their hearts are closed and their ears are shut.

"...for I have not commanded you to come up hither to trifle with the words which I shall speak, but that you should hearken unto me, and open your ears that ye may hear, and your hearts that ye may understand, and your minds that the mysteries of God may be unfolded to your view."

Open your ears, your heart and your mind and you will learn truth, especially concerning the Book of Mormon, and most importantly our Savior Jesus Christ and his atonement. And you will learn of that prophet who he has called, Joseph Smith, that he truly was a prophet. He wasn't perfect but he was called of God. That I know. I just wanted to share these thoughts and testimony with you all.

american_vet said...

not sure why you left the church based on info found on the internet
YOU CAN CREATE A WEBSITE FOR ANYTHING. for example, how much did you pay to start this blog, i'm a network administrator for the united states army, i have 3 servers at my home deticated for various things, one of which is a web server, i can open up notepad and design a website including pictures, videos, and links to other similar sites(i know how to use google too) and publish it, i could use a free domain from, host is on my own webserver, the one that my wife complains about sitting by the kitchen table, and get people from all over the world to see it, i think that 50 out of the billions in the world might believe what is there, take my grandma who has some bi-polar issues, if you told her the moon was green she would go out and look. If i showed her my site she would tell anybody who will listen. So my point is, dont believe what you read on the internet.

as for the argument about joseph sr and his dream, if this is a vision from god, why cant he show it to anyone he wants to, so what if you think smith sr had the dream first, the dream still exists, what is i told you i had the dream? you might think it was from watching the book of mormon movie, or from seminary, or from sunday school, well i had the dream before i knew about mormons.

you might be thinking, well he's a fraud, well, you choose to believe what you read on the net, so what choice do you have but to believe me.

there are alot of unexplained things in this world, and you can look to the net for theorys and ideas, but dont base your life decisions on it, and religion is a pretty major life decision.

Brother Zelph said...

American Vet-

Thank you for your comments. I have not posted or commented on here in a long time as you can see. However, I would like to correct you on a few assumptions you have made about me.

You said "not sure why you left the church based on info found on the internet"

I did not leave the church based on info I found on the internet. That is ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as believing a book to be true just because you feel good reading it and that makes it true.

You said "dont believe what you read on the internet"

How old do you think I am, like 8?

Look, the reason I ultimately left the church was because I no longer believe the claims or doctrines made by the church leadership.

I have taken this very seriously and have studied the criticisms as well as the counter-arguments and defenses made by Mormon apologists. I have found in reading both sides that many times, the critics had the facts on their side and found the arguments by the LDS apologists to be unconvincing. As more and more information became available, a picture started to be painted in front of me as one by one the pieces became clearer and clearer to me.

The final straw was the Book of Abraham. After I discovered that the translation of the Book of Abraham was not authentic, I knew that the church was not true.

I still believe there are good things about the church and there are bad things. It is easy to get carried away one way or another and cling onto those things as if the whole church was like that. However, I do not believe that the church is inspired or directed by God.

This site was simply to share my point of view. You don't have to agree with it and you don't even have to read it. Either way, it doesn't make any difference to me.

You said "if this is a vision from god, why cant he show it to anyone he wants to, so what if you think smith sr had the dream first, the dream still exists, what is i told you i had the dream?"

I agree with you. Believe me when I say that if I had a list of things that caused my disillusionment, Lehi's dream would be near the bottom of that list.

I have not based life decisions based on reading websites. I have taken the time to do thorough research from original sources as often as I can, reading the arguments for and against, then coming to a conclusion based on all the evidence and information.

I think there comes a certain point where one has to get on with their life. I grew up in the LDS church and it was a big part of the beginning of my life. Where I go from here I don't know, but I like the analogy of the canoe.

The church is like a canoe. I used it to get across the river, but now that I have crossed the river and face climbing the mountain, there is no need for me to carry the canoe up the mountain.

Tim said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Tim said...

The unfortunate thing about Mormon teaching is that we're taught to primarily use our feelings about the faith and not our MIND. This is a "red flag" to all those who value the mind that God gave us. As soon as we use our mind to validate something, it is strongly suggested by Mormon teaching that we refrain from those activities in favor of the "feelings" that we should be receiving from God. When we use our MIND to consider the fact that Joseph Smith was just a young 14-year old teenage boy like many other teenage boys in the world and that he claimed he was given an audience or visitation with both the Father & the Son Jesus god as well as many important old & new testament prophets & apostles such as Moses, Peter, John, James, Elisha, and others along with an Angel of God that no one had ever heard of before and that this occurred over a 10-year period from the age of 14, one should be wondering about the possibility that such an incredible thing actually occurred? Joseph was an ordinary, average teenager living in a poor family in the state of New York and his particular claims had never before happened to anyone else in the world at any time in history! According to today's standards & knowledge, the question one should be asking and can teenagers lie? If you answer "yes" to that question (which it should be if you have ever dealt with a teenager before) then is it equally possible that Joseph Smith could have lied about everything he and others claimed to have experienced for the sake of possible great gain in the world? If the answer to that is "yes it is possible" (and that should be the answer) then one should use his mind to ask if a person should emotionally through only their "feelings, stake his or her eternal future on the word of a teenager from New York in the early 1800's along with some close friends and family members who claimed to be witnesses to some of these activities? If one blindly (through "feelings" without using the mind) believes in the word of an ordinary 14-year old boy claiming the most incredible supernatural (and generally outrageous) things ever heard up to that point and including today, then a person should also believe the words and writings of other worldly prophets who claim similar incredible occurrences such as Muhammad, Mary Baker Eddy, the Roman Catholic Pope, Charles Taze Russell, or even Benny Hinn. They all claim or claimed to have an audience with God, Gabriel and or Jesus in various ways and at various times being told many incredible things by or through the same God. Without using our mind to judge what we see and feel, we are actually just brainwashed robots who are made to feel guilty (by some religious leaders) when we do use our mind to question our faith. If you, like many Mormons and people of like faith, don't use your mind to question what "religious" people tell you is true, then you have no right to believe it is true. A person's feelings mean very little when a person does not look deeply at the facts. Just ask an abused wife of a dominating abusive husband. She believes he loves her because he says so and so she "feels" that must be true. But he beats her up daily in the name of that love. Does he really love her? If you use your mind then the answer is obviously no. He cannot truly love her because his actions are so outrageous and do not conform to the definition of love. Joseph Smith's (along with his witnesses) claim unbelievable activities actually happened. But just maybe... those things weren't really true? But if that's so, then why did they do all of that and stand by those "testimonies?" Maybe you should just THINK about it all before it's too late. Your eternity depends on it.

onelowerlight said...

While the similarity between Joseph Smith Sr's dream and Lehi's Dream in the Book of Mormon are striking, your argument of causality is not very strong. There are several problems with your theory that Joseph Smith merely plagiarized Lehi's Dream from the vision his father received.

In order to establish a causal relationship, we must establish three things: 1) that the cause (x) preceded the effect (y), 2) that a strong correlation exists between x and y, and 3) that a causal mechanism of some kind exists between x and y. Your argument appears to be that Joseph Smith created the Book of Mormon piecemeal from other sources. In this case, x would be the outside sources and y would be the Book of Mormon.

For the first test of causality, your theory only partially passes. Joseph Smith Sr's dream occurred before the Book of Mormon was published. However, Lehi's Dream, as contained in 1 Nephi 8 and 1 Nephi 11-15, describes several things that happened after the publication of the Book of Mormon. These include the publication of other books of scripture additional to the Book of Mormon (1 Nephi 13:39), that the Book of Mormon would eventually go to the Native Americans (1 Nephi 13:38), and that the LDS church would become an international church (1 Nephi 14:12), among others.

On the second test of causality, your argument also falls short. Joseph Smith Sr's vision does contain many central elements of Lehi's Dream, such as the tree of light, the fruit, the great and spacious building, the understanding that the building represents Babylon, etc. However, there are several key figures in the Book of Mormon account that are not found in Joseph Smith Sr's account. These include the mists of darkness, the rod of iron, the forbidden paths, etc. Furthermore, the 1 Nephi 11-15 account uses Lehi's dream as a vehicle for explaining the history of Western civilization, something that Joseph Smith Sr's account does not even begin to do.

As far as the third test, your theory also fails. Your causal mechanism appears to be that Joseph Smith created the narrative of the Book of Mormon by borrowing extensively from other sources; that the Book of Mormon is therefore completely unoriginal. As I've shown, the Book of Mormon account is considerably richer, both in narrative details and in symbolic meaning, than Joseph Smith Sr's account (indeed, it would take an "idiot savant" to come up with the Book of Mormon account from Joseph Smith Sr's spotty version of the dream). However, even if we assume that Joseph Smith plagiarized his father, Lehi's Dream takes up less than twenty pages in a 531 page text. For your theory to be true, it must explain ALL of those 531 pages, many of which contain stories and allegories that are much more complex than Lehi's Dream.

If you're looking for a reason to doubt, or an excuse to disbelieve, you've hit on something. If you're looking for a sound theory for Book of Mormon authorship, here is one skeptic that you have not convinced.

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